Hello from a Monotheist outside of Islam

[Zack]

Hello Ismail,

I will look into what you mentioned about Yusuf Ali. On Yusuf Ali, here is a free book link on Isa in the AQ, interacting with Yusuf Ali, including a section on the crucifixion.    http://www.scribd.com/doc/102913537  (Isa in the Qur'an)

Re 4:157 and apparent denial of the crucifixion, I believe the Eastern view of life and death was quite different to that of the west. It is clear that the Arab church in the Middle east was thrown out of Christianity prior to the prophet Muhammad because of their views on 2 distinct natures of Jesus, ie. God speaking through Christ. This affects the way the Injil and AQ  are presented. The Hebrew mind is "The beheaded Hawariyuun are not really dead, but functioning in a different capacity." In the Qur'an prior to 4:157 it states "Don’t say that those killed in Allah’s* path are dead, but alive, though you don’t realize it." (QS 2:154). The question is, does 2:154 apply to Jesus, or didn't he qualify?

The historical evidence for the crucifixion is so overwhelming, to have tens of thousands of people in the era of Jesus, as well as secular historians, recognise the crucifixion makes it almost impossible to question. Whats more, the Hawariyuun who are honored in the Qur'an as faithful Muslims all recognise the crucifixion of Jesus, as does the Hebrew Gospel which was likely the first recording of the Gospel (which is the basis for the Gospel according to Matthew), carried through to Mecca with Waraqa. In my mind denial of the crucifixion causes so much internal problem within the Qur'an as well as external evidence.

However I will still follow up on the source you mentioned,

Regards
Daniel

[Ismail]

Salaam.

In the Qur'an prior to 4:157 it states "Don’t say that those killed in Allah’s* path are dead, but alive, though you don’t realize it." (QS 2:154). The question is, does 2:154 apply to Jesus, or didn't he qualify?

It does not ask us not to say that they were killed. They were killed, for all practical purposes. But, as in the temporal realm, doctors - purportedly the really knowledgeable -  sometimes declare those who are seemingly killed by disease, or any other cause, alive, even so in the spiritual realm, about those considered dead by ordinary folk because they are witness to them having been killed, the Creator Himself declares the truth that those killed in the path of God as alive.

That Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, is the truth.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Deliverance]

Jesus was talking often about the father in heaven ,interesting is the form in arabic if you wright AB in a horizontal way it has the form of a cross.So symbolic he wa gone to his creator. Allahu alem

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Why go so far?

If I stand and stretch both my hands sideways, it is like a cross.

Do such things count, when we are dealing with matters that count?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                             

[Deliverance]

Salaam.

Why go so far?

If I stand and stretch both my hands sideways, it is like a cross.

Do such things count, when we are dealing with matters that count?

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salam,
The Quran and the Bible are in the matter of the crucifixion in Opposition.Literally we will not find an Agreement so i tried this way .And also the Quran is telling us that the meaning of some verses arent meant word to word.

[Zack]

Salaam.

The Quran and the Bible are in the matter of the crucifixion in Opposition.Literally we will not find an Agreement so i tried this way .And also the Quran is telling us that the meaning of some verses arent meant word to word.

As I have mentioned in the past, I begin with a starting point of a unity of message of the Qur'an and the Bible. Re the crucifixion, either the Qur'an and the Bible are in unity with each other, or either the Bible or the Qur'an was in error at the time of the 7th century. The theory of the corruption of the Bible post Prophet Muhammad is quite difficult to maintain. "For no change can occur in a book that is well circulated among men. Every wise man can see that the alteration of the Bible was impossible for it was well circulated among men of different faith and backgrounds.Al-Razi (865 – 925) ”

Surely Gods written Word is on a higher level than my ability to interpret a single verse. For the sake of interpretation of a single verse, an entire pillar of faith of Islam, belief in the Holy Books, is invalid. Interpretation is fragile, often influenced by wars and tensions. The way Christianity interprets what they think the Qur'an says  is due to Rome being a political enemy of Arabia. Whatever the interpretation of the crucifixion, we begin with the understanding that the Holy Books are inspired.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The question is not about the original Book or Books.

Controversies regarding Holy Books are all from the angle of translations and interpretations.

"The Quran and the Bible are in the matter of the crucifixion in Opposition"

We have the original Qur'an with us. What about the Bible?

"And also the Qur'an is telling us that the meaning of some verses arent meant word to word."

The words: "meaning of some verses aren't meant word for word", or similar words, are those employed in the translations, and subsequent interpretations of verse 3:7.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.   

[Zack]

Salaam.

The question is not about the original Book or Books.

Controversies regarding Holy Books are all from the angle of translations and interpretations.

"The Quran and the Bible are in the matter of the crucifixion in Opposition"

We have the original Qur'an with us. What about the Bible?
The words: "meaning of some verses aren't meant word for word", or similar words, are those employed in the translations, and subsequent interpretations of verse 3:7.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

I believe according to the Qur'an and the instructions given within, the Qur'an did not state that the Bible was error. It repeatedly instructed its readers to not go beyond its boundaries, it encouraged People of the Book to believe in its message (QS 4:47), instructed People of the Book to not depart from the Torah and the Injil; (QS 5:68).... So... that is what I endeavor to do. To discredit the legitmiacy of Holy Books and to what would seem to deviate from plain instruction from the Qur'an so to accommodate a different interpretation on the crucifixion is dangerous. With that, the who foundation of Gods revealed written word is on shaky ground, as we question it because it doesn't fit with our interpretation.

I went through a number of years of struggle as I left an orthodox trinitarian position to one of Tauhid, I could only do this by placing the truth of the Holy Books above my own interpretations.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The Historians were, likely, wrong.

"The Wrights were right; but Whitehead was ahead":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2327286/The-Wright-Brothers-NOT-fly-plane--German-pilot-beat-years-earlier-flying-car-claims-leading-aviation-journal.html

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

"Gospels don't say Jesus was crucified":

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/01/bible-doesnt-say-jesus-was-crucified-scholar-claims/

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[good logic]

Greetings brother Ismail.

Yes indeed.  Beyonce was crucified instead, according to this:

!http://thestir.cafemom.com/entertainment/166209/beyonce_gets_crucified_after_posing

Also the Americans have not really landed on the moon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

The internet is like the book that " You can find anything you want in it"

Take your pick, why bother to check?  It says it on the internet.

GOD bless you.

Peace.

[good logic]

Sorry brother , here is the link about Beyonce again.

It might work this time:

http://thestir.cafemom.com/entertainment/166209/beyonce_gets_crucified_after_posing

[Saba]

Salaam good logic and all - I think there is a bigger point here generally and not just to do with the Internet. A lot of us look for information that proves our view on a certain thing. It is called 'confirmation bias'. I suppose we all do it to some extent !? 

"Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Sometimes it does not even matter that people use the views of other people that they would normally completely disagree with. For eg  - I even have a link of the well known critic of Islam who can be very rude at times !!! - Sam Shamoun - who even made use of br. Joseph's article to prove his own beliefs from the BIble to show others - 'look what some Muslims believe what the Qur'an teaches!!???" He knows very well that this is not a 'usual' Muslim position (although well argued by br. Joseph) but he still used it. One certainly for my archives!!!!!  Saba 

https://www.facebook.com/SamShamoun/posts/715796125104007

[good logic]

Greetings Saba.

Thank you for your post.

I agree , some people have only one rule:

Rule #1, I am always right. Rule 2, if you think I am wrong, read rule #1

And of course the Internet confirms that rule for them.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Thank God for the Internet. It presents different views, for us to evaluate.

As is clear from the above posts, nobody believes anything just because it is in the Internet.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.