Crucifixion

[Zack]

Hello all,

I am wondering what people here have concluded in regards to the crucifixion? For myself, as explained in another post, I believe that the Qur'an and "former Books" held to by Christians have a unity of message. (Although some translation errors exist to support dogma). The crucifixion is clearly presented in the Gospel. I should mention that the standard symbol of the cross (a small t ) is very unlikely to be shape of wood which Isa hung on (would have been old wood in a capital T probably).

Despite the unity of message, in the Qur'an it states: and because  of their saying, “We killed the Messiah,  Isa  son of Mariam,  Allah’s* messenger,” (though they did not kill him nor crucify him,  but it seemed so to them.) Surah An-Nisaa' 157

I have settled on understanding that the Qur'an speaks regularly not of a physical state, but a spiritual truth; often not with a western scientific view, but an Eastern spiritual view. Surah An-Nisaa' 157 is understood by looking at Surah Al-Baqarah [2]  154  in the background........

"Don’t say that those killed in Allah’s* path are dead, but alive, though you don’t realize it." Surah Al-Baqarah [2]  154  ... That is the spiritual reality of a martyr, someone who gives up their lives for the sake of love, for the sake of truth. This is a theme within the Bible, the 12 disciples as priests after they were martyred (Revelation), Isa..... when you lose your life you gain it... etc...

So basically Surah An-Nisaa' 157 is talking about a spiritual reality for the martyr.....

Any thoughts??

Regards
Daniel

[Saba]

Salaam Daniel. I like br. Joseph's article on this where he shares his view. http://quransmessage.com/articles/jesus%20crucifixion%20FM3.htm

What do you think of his thoughts on the matter?  Saba 

[Zack]

I saw the article, it had some good points but was more an overview of options. I think the verse quoted in the article:

003:055 "Lo! God said "O Jesus! Indeed, I shall cause you to DIE (Arabic: Mutawaffika) and shall exalt / raise you to Me (Warafi-uka)
is another key point.

The death of Isa is clearly presented in the Injil as a predestined matter, planned before the creation of the world. The same as the birth of Isa......  "It is easy for me, and [this is] so that we will make him a sign for people, and a mercy from us.  This was a predestined  matter.” QS 19:21. The Jews arrogantly said they killed Isa, but the death indicated the commitment of Isa to the will of God. Like his birth, his death was a predestined matter.

I think if Surah 2:154 is interpreted that the martyr lives in a a non-physical sense at death, and 4:157 is basically saying the same thing, it should be interpreted the same way.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

According to 3:55, Jesus was caused to die.

Although we define death in so many ways for practical purposes, a comprehensive knowledge of death is not ours. See:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death

According to 67:2, He created both, death as well as life.

What is death? He alone knows. "Should He not Know, - He that created? ..." 67:14.

According to 2:154, we are asked not to call those killed in the path of God, dead! And we are informed that they are alive. Also, 3:169.

That means they are, for sure, killed, for all practical purposes.

Quran only says that they did not kill Jesus any way, including crucifixion.

Only those killed in the way of God, are alive, according to 2:164, and 3:169.

Humbly,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Sardar Miyan]

Allah did not want to get His messenger crucified by Jews as such the prophet was saved by getting another person like Jesus crucified. Prophet Jesus left his place with his mother Mary & supposed have gone towards east & there is his grave in Kashmir India. I can post his grave sometime later. 

[Sardar Miyan]

A
News item published

A belief that Jesus survived the crucifixion and spent his remaining years in Kashmir has led to a run-down shrine in Srinagar making it firmly onto the must-visit-in India tourist trail.
--------------------------
I am sorry the picture of Jesus tomb could not be got printed

[Sardar Miyan]

The Quran states physical truth not spiritual one as stated by Bro Daniel. Allah says I shall cause you to die, therefore the Jews did not crucify him. Finally the traces of Jesus in India & other places are also found as such he was not crucified but Allah caused him die ( Natural death).

[Zack]

Hello,

As I said..... I pursue an interpretation, that is faithful to the text, that presents a unity of the message of the Holy Books. Hopefully both internally within the Qur'an, and between the Qur'an and the former Holy Books.

I believe there are many concrete historical links that connect the teachings of Islam back to the disciples of Isa (Hawariyuun), and that they faithfully guarded the Injil text. The recipient of this Waraqa Bin Naufel in Mecca, who officiated the marriage of the prophet. He translated the Hebrew Injil (which is Matthew) into Arabic (Al-Bukhari). According to Islamic historians, whose names you would be a lot more familiar with, the Tauhid teachings of the followers of Isa were present in Mecca and surrounding regions for generations before the prophet, who was very much integrated with them. Their belief was clearly confirming the death of Jesus on the "cross". 

As stated on another post, I see Islam as a consistent, connected message from the Hawariyuun, and as such Islam did not begin in Mecca, but a continued truth of Tauhid from Isa and before.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

It is a rule that the person appointed in order that he call the people towards God, at a time when a place is overwhelmed with vice and inequity, is well guarded against being destroyed by the enemies. This is reasonable, as the head of the most vital mission in the world does need special protection.

It has been so as far as Qur'an is concerned.

Each and every Prophet about whom there is narrative in the Book, has always been kept well guarded against the most vicious cunning of the enemies.

This divinely provided security is one of the main themes of Al Qur'an.

Traditionally, Jesus and Yahya allegedly met with violent deaths at the hands of their enemies.

About Yahya God declares: And peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day he will be raised up alive! (19:15)

Jesus avers: And peace on me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day Iwill will be raised up alive! (19:33)

 Zakariyya too, allegedly died a violent death. It is not confirmed by Al Qur'an.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

 

[Saba]

Salaam Ismail...


Yes.... but the Quran also recognizes that prophets were also killed wrongfully at the hands of men.


"Surely (as for) those who disbelieve in the communications of Allah and slay the prophets unjustly and slay those among men who enjoin justice, announce to them a painful chastisement" - 3.21

"Abasement is made to cleave to them wherever they are found, except under a covenant with Allah and a covenant with men, and they have become deserving of wrath from Allah, and humiliation is made to cleave to them; this is because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and slew the prophets unjustly; this is because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits" - 3.112

"Allah has certainly heard the saying of those who said: Surely Allah is poor and we are rich. I will record what they say, and their killing the prophets unjustly, and I will say: Taste the chastisement of burning" - 3.181

"(Those are they) who said: Surely Allah has enjoined us that we should not believe in any messenger until he brings us an offering which the fire consumes. Say: Indeed, there came to you messengers before me with clear arguments and with that which you demand; why then did you kill them if you are truthful?" - 3.183

"Therefore, for their breaking their covenant and their disbelief in the communications of Allah and their killing the prophets wrongfully and their saying: Our hearts are covered; nay! Allah set a seal upon them owing to their unbelief, so they shall not believe except a few" - 4.155

[Sardar Miyan]

The basic point of discussion is whether Prophet Jesus was Crucified or not?Whatever written anywhere the ascertion of Quran is that Jesus was not crucified but Allah made him to die a natural death.Therefore we believe only Quran nothing else.The books written by Mathews or other people are not original Injil but just like Hadith in Islam.Thanks

[Ismail]

Salaam.

(1)  That they killed Jesus, was more their proud boast, than reality, of which they themselves were not sure.

Their utter pride and prejudice is found in their mention of Jesus as Messenger of God as in 4:157, which please see.

All their ire at Jesus was only because he claimed that he was Messenger of God, and they rejected his claim. Yet they boasted that it was the Messenger of God that they killed.

(2)  When they had stooped so low as to seek the death of God's Prophets, it was as though they were guilty of the most heinous crime of Prophets' murder. Because, the Prophets were saved only because of special divine protection. Their enemies were hell bent on killing them.

It is like Abraham actually trying to sacrifice his son, and God declaring: "...O Abraham, you did fulfill the dream..." (37:104-105) Although his son was divinely prevented from being killed!

(3)  The Arabic derivative of the root QTL translated as killed, also means, to spoil, or utterly spoil some one, or to prevent or bar some one's success or growth.

Thus it will mean the Jews' most wicked and strongest efforts to spoil the Prophets' holy plans. It is as good as killing the holy Prophets, for all practical purposes.

Narrating the Ten Commandments, it is mentioned: "...and kill not your children for poverty; We provide for you and them..." (6:151).

Here again, the root is QTL. Here, most traditional commentators of Al Qur'an have stressed the point that it is the neglect of  children - by not providing for their basic education, and thus spoiling them in the name of poverty - that is actually meant in (6:151). Qur'anists too have stressed the point, and they say that in the Arabia of Muhammed's time, there is no historic evidence that male children were killed. Qur'an too mentions only the killing of female children, elsewhere in Al Qur'an.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
 
 

[Wakas]

peace all,

I strongly recommend reading all posts and linked to articles in this thread:
http://salaatforum.com/index.php?id=325

In my view, summary:

Please see the following article:
http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm

THEN also see:
http://www.free-minds.org/jesus-dead-or-alive


 Taking the above into account, in terms of what is most likely, it seems that it appeared to them that Jesus had died on the cross, but likely became unconcious/fainted. He then probably lived a period after before dying.

Not only does the above fit with The Quran, but also explains The Biblical/Christian interpretation of him being raised alive, and its associated myths.

I strongly recommend reading the above links and all should be clear.