A counter to Quranists

[Sardar Miyan]

Salath & Saum
------------
1-If Salath is Following Alla's Commands then why should we make wadu & go to Masjid only as Following Commands is 24/7 Job

2-If Saum is not fasting but meant forTraining &Re-comitting Quran in daily life during Ramazan then
why should one stop when night falls
A counter to Quranists & non believers about Salath & Saum

[Saba]

Dear Sardar - Salaam. Sorry to say but a confused bunch some of these Quranists are and I cannot see a society built upon 'Quranist' ideas when they can't even agree on basic matters of religion such as 'salaat' and 'saum'. They can be just as rude and divisive as the sectarians!!!. All in the name of 'learning' and 'religion is personal'. No it is not just personal. the Qur'an expects a society that works, that has a stable framework - not bickering over 3 salaat, no salaat, 5 salaat!. There is a meaning behind congregations etc. Yes your connection with Allah might be personal, but Islam is a complete way of life. Just go on some of these Quranist forums and see the bickering that goes on and yet they leave sectarian Islam because of all the bickering. !!! Saba

[Sardar Miyan]

Thanks for sharing sister Saba. Salath & Saum are being practiced right from the ministry of Prophet which were mentioned by Christian scholars in their books as mentioned by Bro Joseph Islam which falsifys Dr Shabbir claim that Salath was created by HAROON's mother. Salath is mentioned in Ibne Maliks Hadith narrations who was in earlier period of HAROON Rashid. Thirdly the Tawatur (Continuety) is clear proof of Salath but Quranists & D Shabbir deny it which is their wrong faith. Latest news is Ourbeacon Forum is stopped for financial reasons as per Arif Shamim.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

The ardent, bitter bickering regarding the form and timings of Salat is due to the fact that we are neither satisfied, nor are we really focused on what God has to say about Salat. Of course, the Qur'an does say that the Salat is (was, or has been) decreed, according to timing(s).

The particular timings referred to in (4:103) may also be construed as an Administrative arrangement suitable to the situation obtaining at the time of Revelation.

But the spirit is what is important, as that is is what is really stressed, and that is what is crystal clear.

And that is exactly what is out of focus everywhere, Qur'anists, or not.

(2:238), (20:14), and (23:1-2) are the really neglected verses as regards Salat.

Once our focus is corrected, everything else will follow, in sha Allah.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[good logic]

Greetings Ismail.

Interesting, you mention [2:238].

For me,Ithinkit can only mean "salat" as part of our daily remembrance of the Creator.Why?

The verse after makes it clear for me:( my own opinion/understanding is in brackets)

[2:239]

Under unusual circumstances ( If you fear you are going to miss salat?), you -may pray -while walking or riding. Once you are safe,(  you have normal facilities) you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew.
فَإِن خِفتُم فَرِجالًا أَو رُكبانًا فَإِذا أَمِنتُم فَاذكُرُوا اللَّهَ كَما عَلَّمَكُم ما لَم تَكونوا تَعلَمونَ

This is of course my understanding.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Ismail]

Salaam:

In my post, I had written:

(2:238), (20:14), and (23:1-2) are the really neglected verses as regards Salat.

Meaning, that the spirit of Salat, highlighted in them, fails to register in our minds and hearts.

(2:238): "...Stand for Allah, in utter dedication."

(20:14): "...And establish Salat, for My remembrance."

(23:1-2): "Successful indeed are the Believers; those, who, in their Salat, are humble."

If only we perform Salat in the light of the above Verses!

Then indeed, we will be guided aright in every way, all our lives, in sha Sllah.

No more bitter conflicts, in sha Allah!

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

 

[Saba]

Thanks for sharing sister Saba. Salath & Saum are being practiced right from the ministry of Prophet which were mentioned by Christian scholars in their books as mentioned by Bro Joseph Islam which falsifys Dr Shabbir claim that Salath was created by HAROON's mother.

Absolutely right br Sardar. I felt br. Joseph destroyed that argument in his article where he says:

There is clear evidence in the earliest Non-Muslim sources within approximately a decade of the Prophetic ministry which confirms that the earliest Muslims both prayed and fasted. There would be absolutely no perceivable interest for aggressed Christians to invent such Godly rituals and attribute them to the 'Saracens' (Arab Muslims) who they saw as oppressors.

There is absolutely no credible academic warrant or historical proof for the belief that ritual prayer was invented by later generations of Muslims in the late 8th century.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/invented%20prayer%20FM3.htm

I don't think Dr Shabbir or his trusted followers / crew have ever been able to respond to such a point. Saba 

[Sardar Miyan]

Dr Shabbir thinks that Episode of Karbala is created by Shiahs but recently I saw the blood soacked ve st of Imam Hussain in authentic book. In this back ground the Karbala Episode was real.

[AbbsRay]

Salath & Saum
------------
1-If Salath is Following Alla's Commands then why should we make wadu & go to Masjid only as Following Commands is 24/7 Job

2-If Saum is not fasting but meant forTraining &Re-comitting Quran in daily life during Ramazan then
why should one stop when night falls
A counter to Quranists & non believers about Salath & Saum
[/quote

Salaam Alyikim,  Sadar
What is a Quranist?

[Sardar Miyan]

Quranists are those who believe in only Quran  & not in Hadith or Sunnah. They don't believe in Allahs Miracles like Passage appeared  in occean while Prophet Musa was crossing with his umrah. Jesus make people alive after death, make blind see etc.

[Saba]

Salaam Absrayray .. there are many types of quranists with many different view. Some don't believe in fasting or the number of prayers in the day, or praying, some say drinking is o.k. or they make up new meanings to arabic words so it fits in with what they want to believe etc etc. As you saw recently with what animals to eat, fundamental concepts are argued upon.

I know br. Joseph has spoken out about some of what the Quranist ppl do (not all but some). might help.... I also know there are some good debates between ppl with quranist ideas and br. Joseph on this forum too. Its good to see who has the best opinion from the Qur'an..I think that is why br. Joseph calls himself 'quran-centric' and not quranist. Saba   


---Questioning the Basis of the Arabic Language - A New Fangled Approach of 'Some' Quranists---
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/164704896999979

---Misuse of the Quranic Narratives by 'Some' Quranists to Legitimise 'Modern' Consumption of Alcohol ---
http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/162118507258618

---The Unfounded Agenda of Some Quranists ---
http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/437353489649137

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Saba and Sardar,
So someone adopted the word "Quranist" because a Muslim who only follows the only scripture Muslims are to follow, which is what Allah instructs is to do, and that is the Quran.  It is a slander on the Quran itself using that term in my opinion. The correct term is misguided or gone astray, such as Muslims, who think they are Muslims and attach themselves to a sect and other books or a set of beliefs that go against the words of Allah.  I follow the Quran only, and am a believer/Muslim as Allah calls one in the Quran. I reject all Hadith, weather the go along with the Quran or not. I obey Allahs command to just follow the Quran. I am surprised at some muslims using that word. hmmm

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Saba - Thanks for sharing the links. They were written some time ago as a result of some frustration I was facing with wild interpretations from some groups and their almost abusive responses.


Dear Abbsrayray,

The term 'Quranist' is at times used by certain groups of Quran-only individuals to describe their specific approach and themselves. They are happy to use this term. However, it is also used as a term by various traditionalists to at times ridicule these groups and Quran focused students in general.

That is why when describing an approach, I like to use the term 'Quran-centric' which is more encompassing and inclusive implying that the focus primarily rests on the Quran to derive guidance and understanding God's word. It is probably no different from a form of 'scripturalist' or a description of an approach that adheres as much as possible literally or otherwise, to the scriptures to derive religious beliefs, doctrines and philosophy.

Where it is possible to describe an 'approach', you are absolutely correct that we don't present ourselves as a sect [1]. However admittedly, there is a very fine line between the two. I do know of some 'Quran-only' groups that almost operate as sects.

I hope that clarifies, God willing.

Peace to you both.

Regards,
Joseph

REFERENCE

[1] No Sects in Islam - We are Only Muslims
http://quransmessage.com/articles/no%20sects%20FM3.htm

[Zack]

Hello Br. Joseph,

Thank you for your post and clarification. I understand where you are coming from with being "Qur'an-centric" , in contrast to being  dependent upon non-Qur'an Islamic sources for truth.

However in another aspect in my view, being "Qur'an-centric" is a part of what I see as the "Arabization of Islam". In other words, "Qur'an-centric", Muhammad-centric, Arabic-centric, Mecca-centric etc. are all a part of the "Arabization of Islam". The Prophet Muhammad came to do the opposite.... to introduce a foreign Hebrew belief of God, Prophets, Holy Books, Judgement Day and Angels to replace the Arab Jahiliyah belief.... it was for this that the Prophet suffered in putting truth above his homeland.

The Qur'an meets a language crisis in Arabia where it presents a harmony of message and points people to the former books. I don't see it elevating itself above the former Books. I am sure there will be the day when Muslims will freely access all the Holy Books equally without the thought of going beyond what is considered "True Islam".

Thanks for setting the example Br. Joseph, where we can be 1 Ummah, different religious identities.

Wasalam
Daniel

[Joseph Islam]

As-salam alaykum

Thank you dear brother Daniel. I actually do resonate much of your underlying sentiments.

Albeit revealed in a particular language given the vernacular of its mixed audience, I see the Quran in the main now, as a timeless document that actually discourages any unwarranted centricity of culture or people. Indeed, I do see it engaging with the former books and its adherents and I believe cannot (and does not attempt to) intrinsically elevate its core teachings, as the source after all is the same, (i.e. God).

I've always felt that the approach of remaining Quran-centric actually allows one to become more encompassing (Biblical, scientific, philosophical etc).

Regards,
Joseph