Feedback on Q&A: Who named us muslim

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.

Reference: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1080.0

In my view, the evidence suggests it is God who "named" us "muslimeen". Here is my reasoning/evidence:

1) in 22:78 the other "huwa" usage always refer to God
2) the verse continues throughout from the same perspective/subject-address. If "huwa" refers to God, then the verse flows without a switch in "huwa"
3) to my knowledge, "huwa" is never used as a reference for Abraham elsewhere in Quran

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Wakas,

Wa alaikum assalam

Thank you for your post and sharing your perspective which I do appreciate.

Notwithstanding the fact that the personal pronoun ‘huwa’ has been used for individuals in the Quran (e.g.12:27) and even for Satan (7:27), I do agree however that out of the numerous other references of the personal pronoun’s usage throughout the Quran (of which there are many), the vast majority of the uses are indeed for God.

Also to my knowledge the pronoun hasn't been used for Abraham elsewhere in the Quran, though that in itself would not be conclusive evidence for me that the pronoun's usage cannot be possible for Prophet Abraham in 22:78 from a linguistic and contextual sense as you know in the Arabic language, a masculine noun can be referred to by the pronoun 'huwa' whether it denotes a human being or else (plurals are referred to by the pronoun 'hum'). Evidence in verses 12:27 and 7:27 have already been shared and its usage in general language is quite normal (e.g. huwa fi-faslin - He is in a class).

The interpretation I shared argued the pronoun's connection with the nearest antecedent which is a reference to Abraham and his millat which is supported by other verses of the Quran.

If one accepts the traditional position (which I do not dismiss at all as a strong possibility as I intimated in my post), a contention may arise in the form of another theological question as to whether there is any evidence from the previous scriptures that God has ever named anyone as 'Muslims'. To my knowledge hitherto, I do not think this is the case. It is useful to remember that this is an actual naming or title also supported by use of the definite article 'al'. (i.e. The Muslims) and the naming process given by the verb 'sammakumu'. From a Judeo-Christian perspective this could be a contention based on 'historicity' against the Quran to prove from previous scriptures where this has happened especially when the Quran acknowledges that God has named individuals before which is clearly evident in the Bible and the Quran. e.g. See Abram to Abraham (Genesis 17:5) and Yahya (Quran 19:7) respectively.

I do note however that traditional perspectives are strongly supported by Ahadith in that the pronoun 'huwa' in verse 22:78 refers to God. One only has to read Ibn Kathir's elucidation on the matter which is supported by many authorities. It does appear though given the need for such elucidation in classical literature that as if the question has arisen before and this topic has been debated.

God willing, I will strongly consider sharing a more nuanced perspective in the article link shared by the original reader with regards the interpretation of the personal pronoun 'huwa' in context of verse 22:78 allowing full support for the traditional perspective as well.

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Joseph

[Khalid Zia]

Salam,

The interpretation I shared argued the pronoun's connection with the nearest antecedent which is a reference to Abraham and his millat which is supported by other verses of the Quran.

I wish to take issue with Joseph Islam's interpretation that Huwa does not refer to Allah, on the basis that the nearest antecedent is the Prophet Ibrahim. This does not make much sense from an Arabic grammar standpoint. Arabic, unlike English, has marked grammar, and therefore, is less dependent of word order to make sense.

Furthermore:

There is no real need to repeat Huwa as the pronoun is already implied in the verb Samma سمى [He named] and [from Grammar p.o.v] the use of additional, independent and explicit pronoun would suggest that the reference is towards Allah and not to Ibrahim - as this pronoun creates distance between Ibrahim and the verb Samma.

Furthermore:

وجاهدوا في الله حق جهاده
- - -
هو اجتباكم وما جعل عليكم في الدين من حرج ملة أبيكم إبراهيم
- - -
هو سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكونوا شهداء على الناس فأقيموا الصلاة وآتوا الزكاة واعتصموا بالله
- - -
هو مولاكم فنعم المولى ونعم النصير 

I hope the above illustrates and makes it clear. The problem with Arabic is it lacks punctuation. Given how this verse is written if the reference of that particular pronoun was meant for the Prophet Ibrahim then it would have made more sense to write in such way to avoid confusion:


هو اجتباكم وما جعل عليكم في الدين من حرج ملة أبيكم إبراهيم سماكم المسلمين من قبل وفي هذا ليكون الرسول شهيدا عليكم وتكون

Here the verb [Samma] would be subjugated by the noun [Ibrahim] and then tipping the balance towards hinting that Ibrahim is the one naming us Muslims.


I find the claim that because Millat of Ibrahim is mentioned in the Quran this somehow implies that Ibrahim named us Muslims not to be credible and weak, and fail to see any correlation.

I do note however that traditional perspectives are strongly supported by Ahadith in that the pronoun 'huwa' in verse 22:78 refers to God. One only has to read Ibn Kathir's elucidation on the matter which is supported by many authorities. It does appear though given the need for such elucidation in classical literature that as if the question has arisen before and this topic has been debated.

How many books of 'Irab al-Quran have you studied? Sunni exegesis is not simply dependent upon Ahadith but parsing the grammar of Quran, Arabic language analysis, logic [analogical reasoning in particular] and etc.

The one counter to this position is that Prophet Noah (who arguably predated Prophet Abraham - 6:84) also stated that he was one of the Muslims (10:72).

I have checked both references and Prophet Noah is not mentioned as being among the Muslims! I think you might have misread the word "Mohsineen"

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Khalid,

Wa alaikum assalam

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for sharing your post. Notwithstanding the theological contentions I raised, I neither dismiss your perspective or brother Wakas's which I made clear to him.

With regards your comment:

"I have checked both references and Prophet Noah is not mentioned as being among the Muslims! I think you might have misread the word "Mohsineen"

Please may kindly request that you re-read verse 10:72 that I quoted. You will note that the verse clearly mentions 'muslimeen' and given the context of verse 10:71, this is clearly a reference to Prophet Noah.

فَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَمَا سَأَلۡتُكُم مِّنۡ أَجۡرٍۖ إِنۡ أَجۡرِىَ إِلَّا عَلَى ٱللَّهِۖ وَأُمِرۡتُ أَنۡ أَكُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ

Verse 6:84 was only cited to make the point that Prophet Noah predated Prophet Abraham (hadyana min qablu).


Finally, may I humbly and kindly request that in future that you do not load your comments with any hint of sarcasm, such as your rhetorical question / comment to me.

"How many books of 'Irab al-Quran have you studied? Sunni exegesis is not simply dependent upon Ahadith but parsing the grammar of Quran, Arabic language analysis, logic [analogical reasoning in particular] and etc. "

If you would like to share your comment, please do so but without any hint of sarcasm, please. My comment was not shared with a view to assert that dependency on Ahadith was at the expense of the language of the Quran in this case.

I hope you enjoy your stay here.

With respect and regards,
Joseph

[Khalid Zia]

Dear brother Khalid,

Wa alaikum assalam

Welcome to the forum!

Thank you for sharing your post. Notwithstanding the theological contentions I raised, I neither dismiss your perspective or brother Wakas's which I made clear to him.

With regards your comment:

"I have checked both references and Prophet Noah is not mentioned as being among the Muslims! I think you might have misread the word "Mohsineen"

Please may kindly request that you re-read verse 10:72 that I quoted. You will note that the verse clearly mentions 'muslimeen' and given the context of verse 10:71, this is clearly a reference to Prophet Noah.

فَإِن تَوَلَّيۡتُمۡ فَمَا سَأَلۡتُكُم مِّنۡ أَجۡرٍۖ إِنۡ أَجۡرِىَ إِلَّا عَلَى ٱللَّهِۖ وَأُمِرۡتُ أَنۡ أَكُونَ مِنَ ٱلۡمُسۡلِمِينَ

Verse 6:84 was only cited to make the point that Prophet Noah predated Prophet Abraham (hadyana min qablu).


Finally, may I humbly and kindly request that in future that you do not load your comments with any hint of sarcasm, such as your rhetorical question / comment to me.

"How many books of 'Irab al-Quran have you studied? Sunni exegesis is not simply dependent upon Ahadith but parsing the grammar of Quran, Arabic language analysis, logic [analogical reasoning in particular] and etc. "

If you would like to share your comment, please do so but without any hint of sarcasm, please. My comment was not shared with a view to assert that dependency on Ahadith was at the expense of the language of the Quran in this case.

I hope you enjoy your stay here.

With respect and regards,
Joseph

Thank you for reply. And you are right - I forgot to check the previous verse 10:71 . . . which shows this is a reference to Prophet Noah. I did not wish to point out that this further goes to weaken your objections.

Notwithstanding the theological contentions I raised

I saw no merit in your theological contentions.

Finally, may I humbly and kindly request that in future that you do not load your comments with any hint of sarcasm, such as your rhetorical question / comment to me.

The question isn't rhetorical . . . it is there for inquiry.

If you would like to share your comment, please do so but without any hint of sarcasm, please. My comment was not shared with a view to assert that dependency on Ahadith was at the expense of the language of the Quran in this case.

I am not talking Hadith whilst asking about books of 'Irab. As they are syntactical analysis of the Quran - grammar. Also - your comments imply that you have studied more than one or two books of Tafsir, however, you seem to have missed those that often go into length regarding grammar and etymology. 

[Joseph Islam]

I am not talking Hadith whilst asking about books of 'Irab. As they are syntactical analysis of the Quran - grammar. Also - your comments imply that you have studied more than one or two books of Tafsir, however, you seem to have missed those that often go into length regarding grammar and etymology.

Dear Khalid,

That was not the impression I intended. I fully appreciate (and always have and always will) of the linguistic analysis that has been conducted by past scholars in classical literature. (Quite apart from those expressions found in 'Ahadith').

I do recognise however that at times theological slants do affect the way one interprets language. For example, please see below where I have tried to present different perspectives on a matter.

WASHING OR WIPING THE FEET IN WUDU (ABLUTION)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/washing-wiping%20FM3.htm

On a side note, given that you are aligned to Sufi thought, may I welcome you once again and encourage you to share your differences with my thought with the readers in peace so they can better understand the contentions raised by the differences in approach.

I had recently debated a well-known missionary from the Salafi thought (you may know the brother well) and despite my best endeavours; I felt the discourse had to be curtailed due to the tone of the discourse. It was a pity as there was much to be gained by such a discourse and I quite liked his zeal.

However, I look forward to hearing from you in due course and please accept my apologies for any extended delays in response. I do try to answer as many queries as I can.

Peace and regards,
Joseph

[Wakas]

w/salaam br. Joseph,

Thanks for the reply.

If one accepts the traditional position (which I do not dismiss at all as a strong possibility as I intimated in my post), a contention may arise in the form of another theological question as to whether there is any evidence from the previous scriptures that God has ever named anyone as 'Muslims'. To my knowledge hitherto, I do not think this is the case. It is useful to remember that this is an actual naming or title also supported by use of the definite article 'al'. (i.e. The Muslims) and the naming process given by the verb 'sammakumu'. From a Judeo-Christian perspective this could be a contention based on 'historicity' against the Quran to prove from previous scriptures where this has happened especially when the Quran acknowledges that God has named individuals before which is clearly evident in the Bible and the Quran. e.g. See Abram to Abraham (Genesis 17:5) and Yahya (Quran 19:7) respectively.

If I have understood you correctly, you are suggesting that since the actual word "Muslim" is not found in previous scriptures then this  implies God is not the one "naming" them/us "Muslim". That is not how I personally understand the verse, I understand the "naming" to refer to what it happens to be in Arabic (i.e. language of Quran). In another language, whatever is the equivalent of the Arabic word "muslim" would have been used.

I did some quick research on this, e.g. source

Rabbi Jochanan responds: "He was a Benjaminite. Yet he was called a Yehudi because he rejected idolatry--and anyone who rejects idolatry is called a Yehudi."

The commentaries explain that the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority--to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name--he is called a Yehudi.

I don't know if the above is true or not, but it is interesting and potentially useful.



The conceptual (and perhaps logical) problem I have with the Abraham naming theory is that it seems to require the word "Muslim" to be a meaningless title, e.g. if the word "Muslim" was used in Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek it would have no intrinsic meaning. In other words, to them it would be a made-up word. So in such a theory, did Abraham invent this word, or did he select it from existing words in whatever the language was in his day?
If he invented this unique word, how did Noah come to use it? It seems an impossible coincidence.
If he selected it from existing words, was Noah's language similar, did he also use it by coincidence? Did this word then die out amongst Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek but somehow lived on in Arabic with it's related words and verbs, e.g. islam, aslama, salaam etc and its just a coincidence it seems to fit in with these verbs/words?


Also, in such a theory, the wording seems awkward:
"...he (Abraham) named you al muslimeen from before AND in this (millat)..."
i.e.
Abraham named you (i.e. followers of this) al muslimeen from before AND Abraham named you al muslimeen in this creed/millat

Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute. And not to mention "this millat/creed" was the same as before, so why differentiate then and now.


It's difficult for me to get my head around the Abraham-naming theory.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

Please see my responses to your respected comments in blue italics

"In another language, whatever is the equivalent of the Arabic word "muslim" would have been used."

Absolutely brother Wakas. I would have expected the title 'The Muslim' to be represented in another language or the language of the scriptures (not Arabic) and would have been well known to describe monotheistic followers. The Quran clearly states that such a naming took place.

"or did he select it from existing words in whatever the language was in his day?"

If this theory is to work then indeed, he would have simply used an expression using words of his day.

"If he invented this unique word, how did Noah come to use it? It seems an impossible coincidence."

Prophet Noah could have simply used an expression of his day to imply that they were submitted to God. I have addressed this plausible contention in the original post in the Q&A.

"Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute. And not to mention "this millat/creed" was the same as before, so why differentiate then and now."

As you know, God has asked us to follow Prophet Abraham's creed, not Prophet Noah's or any other Prophets’. I have argued in the original post that specific rites and ways of worship seem to flow from Prophet Abraham (2:128) not any other Prophets'. Indeed the core religion may be the same as revealed to all Prophets (42:13) but 'millat' (more specifically: creed / ways / dictate) can arguably differ. My referencing Prophet Abraham's 'millat', the Quran is implicit that this differed from the 'millat' of prophets before him. After all, the Quran also recognises different laws within the same wider religion.

005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

God Himself pays great emphasis on the creed of Prophet Abraham

002.130
"And who will turn away from the 'millat' of Abraham except who debase their souls with folly? And indeed, We chose Him in the world: And indeed he will be in the Hereafter surely in the ranks of the Righteous."

See also 3:95, 6:161 et al.

Therefore, there is much emphasis on Prophet Abraham's creed (millat) and on Prophet Abraham himself who is the only prophet in the Quran to have been called 'khalil' (friend) of God. "...and God took Abraham for a friend..." (4:125). This in my humble view is deep recognition, not omnipresence.

However, on the contrary, I have consistently admitted the merit of the traditional argument. You would have noted this in my response to your kind self and brother Khalid Zia's comments on this thread.

The only contention still remains, is there any proof of God naming monotheists of a particular creed 'The Muslims' as a title in the previous scriptures (In the language of the scriptures of course and not Arabic). Much akin to the names He has given in the past (Please see Abram to Abraham (Genesis 17:5) and Yahya (Quran 19:7))

Once again let me reiterate that I am not dismissing the strengths of any side of the argument on this issue.

Please do share any further thoughts you may have on this. I would be eager to read it. 

With respect and regards,
Joseph

[Khalid Zia]

Salam,

Firstly, I do not have particular issue or any theological issues/contentions if Prophet Ibrahim was the one to coin the term Muslim - after all the consensus either way would be that Allah has stamped his approval. It is just that I do not see much evidence for it. It was really the suggestion that as Huwa is near to the word Ibrahim, hence this suggest the reference is to him, as this showed a lack of understadning of the Arabic language.

The conceptual (and perhaps logical) problem I have with the Abraham naming theory is that it seems to require the word "Muslim" to be a meaningless title, e.g. if the word "Muslim" was used in Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek it would have no intrinsic meaning. In other words, to them it would be a made-up word. So in such a theory, did Abraham invent this word, or did he select it from existing words in whatever the language was in his day?
If he invented this unique word, how did Noah come to use it? It seems an impossible coincidence.
If he selected it from existing words, was Noah's language similar, did he also use it by coincidence? Did this word then die out amongst Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek but somehow lived on in Arabic with it's related words and verbs, e.g. islam, aslama, salaam etc and its just a coincidence it seems to fit in with these verbs/words?

1. I fail to see why the word Muslim is rendered as a meaningless title if Prophet Ibrahim is the one suggesting it? What is your basis for that?

2. As to the usage by the Prophet Ibrahim, then that would most certainly would have been by whatever tongue Prophet Ibrahim spoke.

3. S-L-M is an old Semitic root - it predates Arabic and Hebrew. It is perfectly possible they used the same root!

Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute.

  How? What? For choosing a name/title? It is perfectly possible he had that authority given to him by the Almighty. We, Sufi/Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] had legislative and other powers granted by Allah, and that in no way would give the Prophet any omnipresence-like attribute.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

"We, Sufi/Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] had legislative and other powers granted by Allah"

Please explain what you meant by "legislative and other powers".

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Khalid Zia]

Salaam.

"We, Sufi/Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] had legislative and other powers granted by Allah"

Please explain what you meant by "legislative and other powers".

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Legislative power - to encode something into law.

Other powers - we believe the Prophet Muhammad - although has physically passed away - however is source of spirituality and a form of life of which we have no perception of. 

[Wakas]

w/salaam KZ,

Thanks for the reply.

1. I fail to see why the word Muslim is rendered as a meaningless title if Prophet Ibrahim is the one suggesting it? What is your basis for that?

2. As to the usage by the Prophet Ibrahim, then that would most certainly would have been by whatever tongue Prophet Ibrahim spoke.

3. S-L-M is an old Semitic root - it predates Arabic and Hebrew. It is perfectly possible they used the same root!

Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute.

  How? What? For choosing a name/title? It is perfectly possible he had that authority given to him by the Almighty. We, Sufi/Sunni believe that the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] had legislative and other powers granted by Allah, and that in no way would give the Prophet any omnipresence-like attribute.

Re: 1)
My basis is that if Abraham coined the name "Muslim" did he invent it or use an existing word in whatever his language was?
If one answers invented it, then it is a meaningless invented word/name, e.g. if he then met someone and said "I'm a Muslim" the other person would have no idea what "Muslim" meant.
But brother Joseph clarified his view, that in his Abraham-naming theory, whatever the equivalent was would have been used in his language, and similarly whatever the equivalent was in Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek/etc would have been used.


###


Let me clarify what I meant by omnipresent-like attribute. My quote below:

Also, in such a theory, the wording seems awkward:
"...he (Abraham) named you al muslimeen from before AND in this (millat)..."
i.e.
Abraham named you (i.e. followers of this) al muslimeen from before AND Abraham named you al muslimeen in this creed/millat

Almost seems to give Abraham omnipresence-like attribute. And not to mention "this millat/creed" was the same as before, so why differentiate then and now.

In the Abraham-naming theory, it is as follows:

1) Abraham named you (i.e. followers of this) al muslimeen from before
AND
2) Abraham named you al muslimeen in this (creed/millat)

How do explain parts 1 and 2? i.e. this millat is the same as Abraham's so why does it differentiate? In case my point is still not clear one simply needs to answer how Abraham named us from before AND how Abraham named us in this millat.

If one can explain that without giving Abraham omnipresent-like attribute, I'd welcome an explanation.

[Khalid Zia]

Salam,

In the Abraham-naming theory, it is as follows:

1) Abraham named you (i.e. followers of this) al muslimeen from before
AND
2) Abraham named you al muslimeen in this (creed/millat)

How do explain parts 1 and 2? i.e. this millat is the same as Abraham's so why does it differentiate? In case my point is still not clear one simply needs to answer how Abraham named us from before AND how Abraham named us in this millat.

If one can explain that without giving Abraham omnipresent-like attribute, I'd welcome an explanation.

I do not know how one arrives at your 2nd proposition if you read the verse 22:78 to mean Prophet Ibrahim is the one naming us Muslims. The verse is not difficult to understand. Prophet Ibrahim simply named his lineage and believers as Muslims -- in his time.

Verse:

And strive for Allah with the striving due to Him.

 He has chosen you and has not placed upon you in the religion any difficulty.

[It is] the religion of your father, Abraham.


Allah named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people.

Ibrahim named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger [Prophet Muhammad] may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people.

So establish prayer and give zakah and hold fast to Allah . He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper.

***

I do not see your confusion. 

[Wakas]

w/salaam KZ,

Ibrahim named you "Muslims" before [in former scriptures] and in this [revelation] that the Messenger [Prophet Muhammad] may be a witness over you and you may be witnesses over the people.

You did not explain how Abraham named us al muslimeen in this (revelation), in the Abraham-naming theory.

Perhaps I can help, do you mean to say (hypothetically), Abraham named you al muslimeen in his day and this naming lived on throughout the scriptures including up to this revelation, i.e. Quran? And *that* is how he named us in this (revelation).