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Offline Khalid Zia

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Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« on: January 09, 2014, 02:38:19 AM »
Salam,

Regarding: WHAT IS AN ISLAMIC GREETING? http://quransmessage.com/articles/salamun%20alaikum%20FM3.htm

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The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace. This is independent of what language this greeting is offered as long as it is imparted with sincerity. 'Aslamo-alaikum' is merely the common Arabic greeting. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic form which closely emulates the greeting that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his community would have been familiar with.

I found this somewhat puzzling. Why make a difference between the usage of the Arabic 'al-' definite particle?

السلام عليكم is same as سلام عليكم - the only difference is usage of the definite article. So, based on this it seems bizarre to suggest that one form is Quranic and the other merely Arabic!

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 03:02:40 AM »
" Salamun Alaikum "is the best Quranic Greetings as such Muslims have to greet calling like this.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 03:13:10 AM »
" Salamun Alaikum "is the best Quranic Greetings as such Muslims have to greet calling like this.

Dear Sardar,

I think, perhaps, you did not understand the discussion.

The correct/best Arabic way is to add the Arabic definite article "al-" to form a complete meaningful way. And that too would be the Quranic way - after all Quran is but in the Arabic language.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 02:03:27 PM »
Dear brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

Arabic has never been a monolithic language. There have always been dialects and particular expressions used by different communities to express similar sentiments. The article does not argue for the difference in 'meaning' of the two forms of salutations that you have highlighted. The article simply shares the type of expression that would have been used by the immediate audience of the Quran to send peace. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic expression. ‘Aslamo-alaikum’ is common today. They are both Arabic.

As to your comment:

"So, based on this it seems bizarre to suggest that one form is Quranic and the other merely Arabic!"

I never claimed that the Quranic expression was not 'Arabic'. It is simply the expression used by the Quran and thus depicts the expression that the Prophet would have been familiar with to greet others.

I believe the crux of the article (and what it attempts to argue) is aptly shared by my quote that you have shared:

"The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace. This is independent of what language this greeting is offered as long as it is imparted with sincerity. 'Aslamo-alaikum' is merely the common Arabic greeting. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic form which closely emulates the greeting that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his community would have been familiar with."

I hope that clarifies, God willing.

Warm regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 04:20:26 PM »
Dear khalid salam,

In some countrys it is not unusual to greet just with salam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_fn9TPj7o

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 04:38:42 PM »
Dear all,

May I kindly request everyone to remain calm. I have removed all entries which have nothing to do with this topic and may lead to further contentions unrelated to this topic.


Brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

Given the fact that I have chosen to remain anonymous, any personal claims that I may make of my academic background will be futile. Furthermore, one's credentials have no exclusive bearing on the truth of an argument. 

I have been happy for you to critique my articles. However, I trust that you will remain committed to comment just on the arguments I have presented.

As far as your response to me is concerned which is captured below:


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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #4 on: Today at 03:15:59 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Islam on Today at 02:03:27 PM
Dear brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

Arabic has never been a monolithic language. There have always been dialects and particular expressions used by different communities to express similar sentiments. The article does not argue for the difference in 'meaning' of the two forms of salutations that you have highlighted. The article simply shares the type of expression that would have been used by the immediate audience of the Quran to send peace. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic expression. ‘Aslamo-alaikum’ is common today. They are both Arabic.

As to your comment:

"So, based on this it seems bizarre to suggest that one form is Quranic and the other merely Arabic!"

I never claimed that the Quranic expression was not 'Arabic'. It is simply the expression used by the Quran and thus depicts the expression that the Prophet would have been familiar with to greet others.

I believe the crux of the article (and what it attempts to argue) is aptly shared by my quote that you have shared:

"The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace. This is independent of what language this greeting is offered as long as it is imparted with sincerity. 'Aslamo-alaikum' is merely the common Arabic greeting. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic form which closely emulates the greeting that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his community would have been familiar with."

I hope that clarifies, God willing.

Warm regards,
Joseph

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'Salamun Alaikum' is the Quranic expression.
It is and it isn't. You have simply repeated what your original stated - without countering what I have put to you. Quran simply uses the above in correct grammatical form. Hence, putting the al- article is NOT any less Quranic. Nor is removing it any more Quranic.

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وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
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and thus depicts the expression that the Prophet would have been familiar with to greet others.
This is simply conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing.


Trying to advocate that "Salamum" is a Quranic expression simply highlights inadequacies of familiarity with the Arabic language.   

I bid you well, and hope you review the matter with a cool mind.



You say with regards my statement that "This is simply conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing."

Given that the Quran has been revealed in the language of the Prophet and his contemporaries and the Quran uses this expression, I do not accept that this is conjecture.

I hope that clarifies, God willing.
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2014, 04:53:43 PM »
Dear khalid salam,

In some countrys it is not unusual to greet just with salam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_fn9TPj7o

Yes, but they adopt Arabic expression into their language - Urdu does that a lot.

Offline Saba

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2014, 05:12:01 PM »
Salaam - o.k. staying with the topic ....br. Khalid - may I ask then what is wrong with the argument that prophet Muhammad (saw) would most likely have known and used the expression 'Salamun Alaikum' with this definitive form? Why can't we take the Qur'an's testimony on this matter? Saba

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2014, 05:12:20 PM »
Dear Joseph  ;D,

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Given the fact that I have chosen to remain anonymous, any personal claims that I may make of my academic background will be futile.

It is not the question of your academic background as such, but one of understanding. When one disagrees - the language is bound to be contentious. I have challenged your understanding of the matter . . .

As this is your site - then you have complete autonomy to dictate the terms. However, it is up to you to engage in such debates and challenges. You do not have to - if you do not wish to do so. As you have this open forum - and seem open to a lively debate then I take it you are open to your work being critiqued. I apologize of any offense caused, as this is not my intention.



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Furthermore, one's credentials have no exclusive bearing on the truth of an argument. 

True. However, two scientists talking science and a scientists versus a non-scientist is a different matter altogether. When you simply re-iterate your former position without addressing the objections posed, then that does show lack of understanding.



This is not matter of over-whelming importance - but mild gripe. I think, it is not right to say that "salamun" is Quranic expression and "al-Salamu" isn't. And there is no other way of saying this - but this does show a lack of understanding. 



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You say with regards my statement that "This is simply conjecture on your part. You have no way of knowing."

Given that the Quran has been revealed in the language of the Prophet and his contemporaries and the Quran uses this expression, I do not accept that this is conjecture.

But you have no way of knowing whether the Prophet simply used "Salamun" or the correct independent version "As-Salamu". Also the Quran has been revealed in the Arabic language and as will ALL languages there is difference between literary and spoken dialects.

Quran uses the expression is correct grammar mode. And when it is right - as I have shown Quran also uses "Al-Salamu" also. Hence, it is incorrect to say "Salamun" is the correct Quranic expression.

Also, Conjecture - an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. Yes, I standby what I said. From using Quran alone, your argument is conjecture.



Thank you for your patience

Offline Ismail

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2014, 06:56:23 PM »
Salaam.

Please correct me if I am wrong:

"Salaamun 'Aalaikum" is, after all, an innocent, or pious act of dittoing from the Qur'an. There is nothing wrong with it linguistically too. (Let us respect individual leanings regarding pious preferences.)

"Assalaamu 'Alaikum", is true, as a matter of course.

In all humbleness, I appreciate with thanks, your pointing out Verse (19:33).

Looking forward to blessed and productive exchanges in future,

And, with great regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2014, 07:52:23 PM »
Salaam.

Please correct me if I am wrong:

"Salaamun 'Aalaikum" is, after all, an innocent, or pious act of dittoing from the Qur'an. There is nothing wrong with it linguistically too. (Let us respect individual leanings regarding pious preferences.)

"Assalaamu 'Alaikum", is true, as a matter of course.

In all humbleness, I appreciate with thanks, your pointing out Verse (19:33).

Looking forward to blessed and productive exchanges in future,

And, with great regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

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There is nothing wrong with it linguistically too.

Yes there is. Salamuk Alikum by itself would not become a meaningful Arabic sentence as such - it is a phrase. This is why when used independently -

As-Salamu Alikum - is normally used.

But the real contention is this:

To imply that "As-Salamu Alikum" is not Quranic and simply Arabic is incorrect and shows lack of understanding.

But - if someone wishes to use "Salamun" that is not problem. I prefer to use "Salam" alone.   



So to sum up the real issue is saying that: "As-Salamu Alikum" is Arabic and not Quranic. And trying to portray the "Salamun Alikum" as more quranic.

 

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 04:00:44 AM »
Dear brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

Your comment:

"To imply that "As-Salamu Alikum" is not Quranic and simply Arabic is incorrect and shows lack of understanding."

If it is Quranic, then provide clear evidence of it's use in the Quran in that exact form. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the expression used in the Quran, hence it is 'Quranic'. There is nothing too complicated about this in my humble view. The fact that both expressions are Arabic is irrelevant.

I feel that the gist of the article has been completely lost in this thread which was "The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace."

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2014, 04:10:32 AM »
Salam,

Dear brother Khalid,

As-salam alaykum

Your comment:

"To imply that "As-Salamu Alikum" is not Quranic and simply Arabic is incorrect and shows lack of understanding."

If it is Quranic, then provide clear evidence of it's use in the Quran in that exact form. 'Salamun Alaikum' is the expression used in the Quran, hence it is 'Quranic'. There is nothing too complicated about this in my humble view. The fact that both expressions are Arabic is irrelevant.

I feel that the gist of the article has been completely lost in this thread which was "The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace."

Regards,
Joseph

I have already pointed to a verse which does use the Arabic definite article. Please see above for reference.

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'Salamun Alaikum' is the expression used in the Quran

Yes - as the correct grammar form and as part of sentences - especially after the verb Qaala قال [To say].  "Salamun Alikum" is an incomplete expression and used independently - it is not the best form.

After all - it would be more to the spirit of Quran to maintain the best form of grammar, rather than otherwise!   



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I feel that the gist of the article has been completely lost in this thread which was "The best Islamic greeting is one that contains the salutations of peace."

But this is something that has never been under question. And the objection raised was after all something which you have written and I found objectionable!  ;D

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2014, 04:29:20 AM »
As-salam alaykum brother Khalid,

In response to my statement: 'Salamun Alaikum' is the expression used in the Quran", you say:

"Yes - as the correct grammar form..."

Yes, and that is my point. That is the form that the Quran uses, hence it is 'Quranic'. This is the form that the Prophet would have been familiar with. The Quran is in the language of the Prophet's dialect. 

"... and as part of sentences"

And in standalone form too. Please see verse 7:46.

You share:

"Salamun Alikum" is an incomplete expression and used independently - it is not the best form.

I disagree. It is an expression and carries meaning. It is used in verses 6:54, 13-23-24, 16:32, 28:55, 39:73 and 19:47 as a complete expression.  As already mentioned, in verse 7:46, it is also used as a standalone expression.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Khalid Zia

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Re: Crtique: What is an Islamic greeting?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2014, 04:39:26 AM »
Salam,

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Yes, and that is my point. That is the form that the Quran uses, hence it is 'Quranic'. This is the form that the Prophet would have been familiar with. The Quran is in the language of the Prophet's dialect. 

What you have failed to understand is that Quran does not use this independently. To pick a phrase out of middle of sentence and using it as is - is not right.

Actually it is VERY unlikely the Prophet Muhammad [Peace Be Upon Him] would have said "Salamun" but "Salam" - Arab history of phonology shows that tanween is usually not pronounced.

***

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And in standalone form too. Please see verse 7:46.

You share:

"Salamun Alikum" is an incomplete expression and used independently - it is not the best form.

I disagree. It is an expression and carries meaning. It is used in verses 6:54, 13-23-24, 16:32, 28:55, 39:73 and 19:47 as a complete expression.  As already mentioned, in verse 7:46, it is also used as a standalone expression.

I do not agree. I have already mentioned this above.