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Offline good logic

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Praying for the Deceased
« on: January 25, 2014, 01:55:46 AM »
Greetings brother Joseph.

Please allow me to make the following point, after I quote you from your above post:

I also have no qualms to pray for the deceased at any gravesite. However, I never ask the dead for anything as this in my opinion, is tantamount to shirk. One can only pray 'for' the dead and not 'through' the dead [1]. 

Is praying for the dead Qoranic?  Giving them a sending off at the grave may be!
We have to ask ourselves the following questions using Qoranic facts:
1- Have they already  had their interim and deserved reward/sanction according to GOD s judgement ?
2- Can we change the outcome( already decided by GOD) once one is dead?
3-What would praying for them change?

GOD has asked us to ponder Qoran and reason by what is taught in it.

However I agree with you we should not pray through the dead either.

GOD bless you.

Peace.




Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2014, 02:59:28 AM »
Dear Good logic,

Greetings to you too.

Actually, you ask a very important question and a very popular one and thus I thank you for giving me another opportunity to discuss this briefly as I feel it is a common reason for many misunderstandings.

You are absolutely correct with your statement that "GOD has asked us to ponder Qoran and reason by what is taught in it" and that is God willing, what we all must be prepared to do.

Thus, the first thing that is easily deduced from the Quran is the fact that God is not part of His creation, nor is He comparable in any way with His creation. Arguably then, not being restricted by His created realm, God is also thus not subject to time or space nor does He operate within the confines of his created realm [1]. We (as created beings) are subject to 'linear' time and space, and not God.

Therefore, whether we make a prayer before one's death, or afterwards, for God, His knowledge of that prayer was not subject to the point at which the prayer was made.

To elaborate this concept of linear time which does not restrict God, I share a humble example.

When prophet Moses came with his people to a juncture where the seas needed to be parted (26:63), God knew that this situation would occur in advance and thus did not set the geology in motion at that particular point but arguably, allowed for nature to take its cause (possibly eons earlier) so that the net effect would occur at the point it needed to happen. 

Furthermore, God does not force our choices either. Rather He has knowledge of those choices due to His nature, such as His omnipotence and more importantly, omnipresence (state of being everywhere at once). (2:115, 57:3; 6:103). Free will (the ability to make choices) and God's 'knowledge' of those choices are very different concepts and oft confused by many Muslims.

Similarly, if I pray for my deceased great-grandfather, the prayer is known to God before He created the Universe. For God, prayer is not 'linear' in time. Time is only linear for 'created' beings.  Hence our prayer is heard by an entity that is not bound by our concept of time. Therefore, how our prayer will affect the deceased is beyond our knowledge.

Now in the little that I have written, I trust that both your kind self and other interested readers have captured a concept (if not appreciated already) that may God willing, provide a perspective of thought with regards questions such as you have asked in your last post, entitled 1-3.

I hope that helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.


REFERENCES

[1] TIME, SPACE AND DIVINE PRESENCE
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/time%20and%20space/timespace%20FM2.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline good logic

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2014, 03:32:23 PM »
Greetings bother Joseph.

Thank you once again for your answer.

While I agree with you that GOD is not confined to our time/space.

However as far as we are concerned we live this life at this time, Those who died have lived their life in the past time. Praying for them is a futile exercise.( Do not get me wrong, as far as I am concerned I hope GOD forgives as many as He chooses to forgive)

Say , for example I wanted to pray for " Pharaoh"( the one associated with Moses). I know  that the outcome described in Qoran will not be changed.GOD knew that I was going to pray for him(or not) is also not going to change the outcome. So what will my praying for him achieve?

While our compassion,  care for others will probably give us the need to ask GOD to forgive/bless.. them, the reality is as far as our time and space is concerned they have earned their reward/sanction and are awaiting judgement. i.e. The matter is settled at death.

GOD bless you.

Peace.



Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2014, 08:30:14 PM »
Greetings good logic,

As I respectfully shared from my humble perspective, it does not matter for God 'when' a prayer is made by a human being, whether it is before someone's death or afterwards. If God is going to respond to someone's prayer He will regardless as He is not located in our linear persective of time.

For example, if you pray for peace for someone after their death, God has already heard that prayer, acknowledged it and taken account of it. Therefore, 100 individuals praying for a soul's well-being after their demise would have been taken account of, before the person died.

This is no different from God sending peace on messengers when they have already passed away from our linear time perspective.

037:181           
"And Peace be upon the messengers!"

One could ask what is the point of sending peace, when God has already bestowed peace on them? For God, human beings are not dead in the way we perceive them (3:169) [1].  He sees them in the past, present and future due to His omnipresence and encourages His devoted followers to continue with such invocations [2].

037:108-111
"And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times: "Peace be upon Abraham!". Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. Indeed, he was one of Our believing Servants"

With respect to Prophet Noah:
 
037:078-80
"And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times: Peace be upon Noah! among the worlds. Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. Indeed, he was one of Our believing Servants"
 
Prophets Moses and Aaron:
 
037.119-122
"And We left for both of them among generations (to come) in later times: "Peace be upon Moses and Aaron!". Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. Indeed, both of them (were) of Our believing Servants"
 
Prophet Elias:

037:129-132
"And We left for him among generations (to come) in later times: "Peace be upon Elias!". Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. Indeed, he was one of Our believing Servants"

However, please allow me to apologise, as I feel I misunderstood your rhetorical questions as real questions to me in which you solicited a response. I know understand you already have a view formed on this matter and were presenting your respected disagreement.

Thus, I would like to politely and respectfully agree to disagree with you on this matter and in particular, your assertion that “praying for them is a futile exercise” for the reasons that I have already cited.

With respect and regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Is the Prophet Muhammad Alive?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1084.msg4510#msg4510
[2] PBUH (PEACE BE UPON HIM)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pbuh%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline good logic

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 09:01:57 PM »
Greetings brother Joseph.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer.

Saying "Peace be upon the righteous" is agreeing with God s judgement, praying for the dead is a form of intercession?

Although I have read your thoughts and references, I also feel that I would like to politely and respectfully agree to disagree with you because of the following verses:


 Abraham,God's beloved servant, could not intercede on behalf of his father (9:114). Noah could not intercede on behalf of his son (11:46). Muhammad could not intercede on behalf of his uncle (111:1-3) or relatives (9:80).
Also See 2:48, 2:123; 6:51, 6:70, 6:94; 7:53; 10:3; 19:87; 26:100; 30:13; 32:4; 36:23; 39:44; 40:18; 43:86; 53:26 & 74:48.
 


Thank you brother for your thoughts.

GOD bless you.

Peace.


Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 09:12:38 PM »
Greetings good logic,

praying for the dead is a form of intercession?

In my humble opinion, not at all, for the reasons already cited.

Praying 'through' the dead is arguably a form of intercession (seeking help from the deceased) as I have already shared. [1] Praying 'for' the dead is not.  I like yourself, do not accept the notion of 'intercession' as commonly understood by many to be supported by the Quran [2].

I hope that clarifies, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Praying 'For' the Dead is Different from Praying 'Through' the Dead
http://quransmessage.com/articles/praying%20for%20and%20praying%20through%20FM3.htm
[2] INTERCESSION AND THE PROPHET'S HELP
http://quransmessage.com/articles/intercession%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline good logic

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Re: Praying for the Deceased
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2014, 05:47:25 AM »
Greetings brother Joseph.

Thank you once more for your answer.

If you mean praying ( salat) for the dead as  a sending off . i.e " funeral prayer", then,I agree the Qoran supports that.

However to pray for the dead to be saved (And build up a hope/expectation that GOD is going to save them) is what I described as a form of intercession.

The case of Abraham and his father ; When Abraham realised that his father was opposed to GOD, he ceased/stopped...

Thank you brother . I hope you see the point I was making.

I appreciated the conversation.

GOD bless you.

Peace.

Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197