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Offline Saba

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Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« on: February 14, 2014, 09:53:23 PM »
Greetings Saba.

That is how I understand the verse about Joseph. You may understand it differently

The point that I wanted to make is to get into the habit of remembering to say " Bismi allah", "In shaa allah" and " Mashaa allah"...etc. A true believer has GOD on his/her mind 24/7. If he/she errs or forgets then:

Salaams goodlogic. I mean no disrespect, but they way you have interpreted the verse is no small matter.. you said:

Quote
-- Joseph-- Slipped up and put his trust on other than GOD.

12:42
He then said to the one to be saved "Remember me at your lord."* Thus, the devil caused him to forget his Lord, and, consequently, he remained in prison a few more years.

You are almost accusing a noble prophet of committing Shirk (ma'zallah)!!! so much so that he was further punished for it and remained in prison for it ...You even wrote your own translation to fit your understanding of accusing a prophet.

 As I said, and as far as I know nearly most understand this verse (quranic and traditionalist) it was one of the prisoners that forgot!!!! due to Satan's influence. !!

012.042
YUSUFALI: And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
PICKTHAL: And he said unto him of the twain who he knew would be released: Mention me in the presence of thy lord. But Satan caused him to forget to mention it to his lord, so he (Joseph) stayed in prison for some years.
SHAKIR: And he said to him whom he knew would be delivered of the two: Remember me with your lord; but the Shaitan caused him to forget mentioning (it) to his lord, so he remained in the prison a few years.
ASAD: And [thereupon Joseph] said unto the one of the two whom he considered saved: "Mention me unto thy lord [when thou art free]!" But Satan caused him to forget to mention [Joseph] to his lord, and so he remained in prison a few [more] years.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/42/default.htm

Saba

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 10:12:15 PM »
Greetings Saba.

Thank you for providing me with another explanation for the verse.

Can I clarify that I said:" That is how I understand the verse".

" Shirk" is different from forgetting then repenting. I have not accused a noble prophet of " Shirk".

All the noble prophets were humans like us. If they erred or forgot then repented, there is no big deal about it.

I also respect their devotion to God and close by saying: Peace upon them all .

GOD bless you.

Peace.

Offline Saba

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 10:13:47 PM »
Thanks for replying good logic  :) 

Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 05:11:52 PM »
Greetings Saba.

Thank you for providing me with another explanation for the verse.

Can I clarify that I said:" That is how I understand the verse".

" Shirk" is different from forgetting then repenting. I have not accused a noble prophet of " Shirk".

All the noble prophets were humans like us. If they erred or forgot then repented, there is no big deal about it.

I also respect their devotion to God and close by saying: Peace upon them all .

GOD bless you.

Peace.
Salaam!!

Dear brother,  please, for  Allah's sake, think before posting.   I do agree with you that you have the liberty to understand a verse as you like.    But we will strongly object if you post such blasphemous interpretation in public forums.   Based on what authority you claim prophet Yousuf put his trust on others other than Allah?  You have no idea what you are posting.   I agree with you the prophets were  humans like us.  But they will never ever put their TRUST on others other than Allah.  Even a child should be able to understand it is not prophet Yousuf who forgot.  Here is the flow of the discussion in the Quran;

- Prophet Yousuf is requesting his companion in the jail to mention about him to his lord (master) اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ  after his release
- But Satan caused him to forget mentioning it to his lord (master) فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ after his release
- There was a chance the innocence  of the prophet yousuf could have been made known and he get released but since his companion forgot to mention about him, he had to spend several more years in the jail.
-  Then after many years, the King saw a dream and asked for the interpretation of the dream.  At this stage only the man who was saved remembered about Yousuf (this explains who forgot).   The Quran is very clear on this point.  وَادَّكَرَ بَعْدَ أُمَّةٍ the man thought about Yousuf after a period.

Kindly take care before you post your self made interpretation.  You are unknowingly insulting a noble prophet of Allah.  I do not think even any of us participating in the discussion will put our trust on others other than Allah though we may commit sometimes lesser sins.  May Allah forgive our sins and gather all of us in the Jannat.   Please, please...think 100 times before you post comments about Prophets of Allah.

Thanks

Regard,
Optimist

The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 06:10:17 PM »
Greetings Opyimist.

Thank you for your advise.

If you kindly open a new thread, I will give you the reasons from Qoran of why I understand the verse about Joseph as I explained it. And I still do.

I hope you will be patient with me.

In this food thread I will be " off topic".

Thank you once more.

GOD bless
Peace.

Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 06:45:18 PM »
Greetings Opyimist.

Thank you for your advise.

If you kindly open a new thread, I will give you the reasons from Qoran of why I understand the verse about Joseph as I explained it. And I still do.

I hope you will be patient with me.

In this food thread I will be " off topic".

Thank you once more.

GOD bless
Peace.

Sorry!  I do not want to make more people read people insulting prophets of Allah.   
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 07:38:29 PM »
Dear good logic,

There is one point I would like to highlight here for you to reconsider your false analysis.  As you may have noted, the Quran is using the word "Rabb" three times in 12:41-42. 

أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا  : One of them will pour out wine for his lord (master) to drink
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ mention about me before your lord (master)
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ Satan made him forget to mention about Jospeh before his lord (master)

The meaning of 'Rabb' at all the three places here is not in the sense as GOD who created the world and the human beings (the question pouring wine to GOD does not arise at all), but liked to its root meaning "Sustain", the one who is responsible to sustain and maintain (in the context, his master).  You will notice a similar usage of the term in 79:24 when Pharoah claimed he is the Rabb.  Pharoah was not claiming he created the universe and his subjects.  He was claiming he was the sustainer (who is responsible for providing sustenance  to his people).   

Take care!!

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 09:08:12 PM »
Greetings Optimist.

Thank you for your post.

GOD is in total control of everything. What happened to Joseph was also controlled by GOD.

True believers have a big responsibility to follow/serve GOD Alone ,only God s system will do.( they do not follow man s system!). The higher up the ladder, the bigger the responsibility. They must be extra careful and remember GOD at all times. They must never rely on anyone else or any other system.
In the believers s case " If something bad happened to you ,it is from you,but if something good happened to you it is from GOD"


Also:
8:17
It was not you who killed them; God is the One who killed them. It was not you who threw when you threw; God is the One who threw. But He thus gives the believers a chance to earn a lot of credit. God is Hearer, Omniscient.
فَلَم تَقتُلوهُم وَلٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ قَتَلَهُم وَما رَمَيتَ إِذ رَمَيتَ وَلٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ رَمىٰ وَلِيُبلِىَ المُؤمِنينَ مِنهُ بَلاءً حَسَنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ سَميعٌ عَليمٌ
6:17
If God touches you with adversity, none can relieve it except He. And if He touches you with a blessing, He is Omnipotent
وَإِن يَمسَسكَ اللَّهُ بِضُرٍّ فَلا كاشِفَ لَهُ إِلّا هُوَ وَإِن يَمسَسكَ بِخَيرٍ فَهُوَ عَلىٰ كُلِّ شَىءٍ قَدي
رٌ

In the case of Joseph, GOD choose for him to stay few more years in prison. Why?

Just something to reflect on.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2014, 03:45:19 AM »
GOD is in total control of everything. What happened to Joseph was also controlled by GOD.
Salaam!

God says Satan made the companion of Jospeh to forget.  Are you saying that it is not Satan, it is GOD who made the companion of Joseph to forget?? 

First you clarify this before I make comments further.

Also, kindly translate for us the followings as per your understanding;

أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا 
اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ
فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ


Thanks,

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2014, 07:28:37 AM »
Peace Optimist.

Thank you for your post.

I have not said anything about the companion of Joseph.

I also said I hope you will be patient with me.

Please open another thread if you wish to carry on our discussion and I will gladly ,GOD willing, explain my view further using Qoran.

GOD bless you.

Peace.


Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2014, 08:44:03 AM »
Dear Good Logic,  Salaam!

Kindly start (if you want) a new thread focusing on the meaning of the word "Rabb" at the following places.

أَمَّا أَحَدُكُمَا فَيَسْقِي رَبَّهُ خَمْرًا 

اذْكُرْنِي عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ

فَأَنْسَاهُ الشَّيْطَانُ ذِكْرَ رَبِّهِ


I have already posted my comments. 

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2014, 04:07:11 PM »
Peace Optimist.

I understand your explanation.

I agree "Rabb" means lord/master ... When it refers to a  human it can also mean a king/ruler...

You are saying all three fit the same " Rabb". I disagree with you on the third one.

GOD bless you.
Peace.


Offline optimist

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2014, 07:40:29 PM »
Peace Optimist.

I understand your explanation.

I agree "Rabb" means lord/master ... When it refers to a  human it can also mean a king/ruler...

You are saying all three fit the same " Rabb". I disagree with you on the third one.

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Salaam!

If you agree with me that, in the first two places, the word Rabb fits the meaning as master, you will have to agree with me  the word that comes immediately after the second Rabb, فَأَنْسَاهُ (But made him forget),  here HU (him) can only refer to the companion of prophet Joseph.  So also the HI (him) in Rabbihi(his master).  Kindly note, there is no discussion of prophet Joseph‘s master in the preceding  verses.  Even as per your implicit  admission, the word Rabb mentioned two times in the preceding verses refers to the master of the companion of Joseph, not Joseph‘s master.  THINK.

Take care please!  Assalamu alaikum

Kind regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline good logic

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Re: Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2014, 11:22:39 PM »
Greetings Optimist.

Thank you for your post.

Or the " Hu" can  refer to Joseph, since " Falabitha" after it refer to Joseph?

Why not?

God bless you.
Peace.


Offline good logic

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Re: Prophet Joseph's Reliance on Allah
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2014, 10:00:00 AM »
Greetings Optimist.

Thank you moderators for splitting the topics.

We must ponder Qoran . GOD asks that we verify all information.

Optimist, like you, I used to understand the verse about Joseph as you explained. However on further studies/pondering I now understand it differently.

Let me explain the reasons for this:

1-  The main question that prompted me to search further  was- Why would Joseph stay few more years in prison because someone else forgot to mention him to his lord? It did not seem just/fair?
2- Also GOD looks after the believers in this life and in the hereafter.

This is my current understanding of the verse;

First let me quote the following verses:

18:23
You shall not say that you will do anything in the future,
وَلا تَقولَنَّ لِشَا۟ىءٍ إِنّى فاعِلٌ ذٰلِكَ غَدًا

18:24
without saying, "God willing."* If you forget to do this, you must immediately remember your Lord and say, "May my Lord guide me to do better next time."
إِلّا أَن يَشاءَ اللَّهُ وَاذكُر رَبَّكَ إِذا نَسيتَ وَقُل عَسىٰ أَن يَهدِيَنِ رَبّى لِأَقرَبَ مِن هٰذا رَشَدً
ا

When Joseph asked the companion to remember him to his master, could he have overlooked his Lord ( GOD) at that moment,  or may be not added " God willing"?.....

Throughout Qoran GOD tells us what others do/say...is of no consequence to us, providing we stay loyal and devoted to Him. Also he tells us " If bad happens to the believer it is from himself but if good happens it is from GOD".

GOD also tells us to remember Him day and night . if we slip up we ask for forgiveness and repent.

Joseph would have known all this, he was devoted to GOD Alone. But as humans we all slip up now and then.

A believer accepts everything that happens to him/her, good or bad, and does not put the blame on someone else. He/she knows to complain only to GOD. if bad befalls a believer, they should know it is from them, remembering GOD, asking for forgiveness and repenting is the solution.

GOD does not just tell a story, He teaches us a lesson from the story.

GOD also is consistent throughout Qoran. There are no contradictions in Qoran.

Of course you are entitled to your understanding also brother.

May the Lord teaches us knowledge and patience.

Thank you .

GOD bless .
Peace.