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Offline Mehdi

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Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« on: March 16, 2014, 04:35:31 PM »
Assalamou 'alaykom everybody,

Please can anyone clarify things for me :

And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people 6:68

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers. 5:57

Can someone please go deeper in explaining these verses ? I have many friends not following Islam. Sometimes I go out with them (restaurant, Hotel...) and they are drinking, dressing badly, saying bad things...

So question is : Can we stay with those who drink or when they are dressed badly (some nudity..) ? Also how far can we go ? for example Going to a Cinema to watch movie which have nudity and bad sequences... Can we be friends with them (allies) ?

With Peace,

Mehdi

Offline Zack

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 03:25:39 AM »
Assalamou 'alaykom everybody,

And when you see those who engage in [offensive] discourse concerning Our verses, then turn away from them until they enter into another conversion. And if Satan should cause you to forget, then do not remain after the reminder with the wrongdoing people 6:68

O you who have believed, take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given the Scripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if you should [truly] be believers. 5:57

With Peace,

Mehdi

I would think 5:57 and 6:68 is straight forward good advice to not associate and take as friends those living an immoral life. Beyond that, 5:57 seems to be directed to a war context in Arabia, and not taking as allies those who mock your belief.

As per articles on this site, these types of verses need to be read as relating to whether someone is Muslim / Christian etc, as those divisions did not exist within the Quran.

Offline Zack

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 04:44:55 AM »

[/quote]

As per articles on this site, these types of verses SHOULD NOT be read as relating to whether someone is Muslim / Christian etc, as those divisions did not exist within the Quran.
[/quote]

Sorry missed a key word in the previous post. There is also another thing to consider....... Often the motivation to disconnect with "Sinners" is to give "the appearance of someone religious". This is one of the central themes of the Injil...... the accusations against Nabi Isa was that he associated with "sinners." The response of Isa was "He came for the sick, not those who are well." Those who are living in "sin" are often living that life as a result of the life they were born into..... they need "a friend of sinners".

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 10:34:58 PM »
وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَ الَّذِينَ يَخُوضُونَ فِي آيَاتِنَا فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ حَتَّىٰ يَخُوضُوا فِي حَدِيثٍ غَيْرِهِ وَإِمَّا يُنسِيَنَّكَ الشَّيْطَانُ فَلَا تَقْعُدْ بَعْدَ الذِّكْرَىٰ مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ

And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 10:36:51 PM »
Bro MehdiS Here is another Ayaah5;57
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّخِذُوا الَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُواوَإِذَا رَأَيْتَ الَّذِينَ يَخُوضُونَ فِي آيَاتِنَا فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ حَتَّىٰ يَخُوضُوا فِي حَدِيثٍ غَيْرِهِ وَإِمَّا يُنسِيَنَّكَ الشَّيْطَانُ فَلَا تَقْعُدْ بَعْدَ الذِّكْرَىٰ مَعَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ

And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people. دِينَكُمْ هُزُوًا وَلَعِبًا مِّنَ الَّذِينَ
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Mubashir

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2014, 03:58:00 PM »
Please understand the context of these verses to fully comprehend them. We need to remember what kind of overt and covert hostility the budding Muslim community was facing 1400 years ago. As a general rule:

[60:08] As for such [of the unbelievers] as do not fight against you on account of [your] faith, and neither drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to behave towards them with full equity: for, verily, God loves those who act equitably.


Offline Mehdi

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2014, 07:48:36 PM »
Assalamou alaykom Mubashir,

I do understand and totally agree with what you said and this verse.

The question arises only when there is sins are committed, and regarding our participation in a gathering (ie. wedding parties where alcohol is served and things that contravene the teaching of the Quran 6:70)

Offline adam

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2014, 08:49:23 AM »
Salam Mehdi,

Just my two cents. In my opinion, the Christians and Jews were never allies or friends. From the verse it is clear to me that this is referring to the Judeo-Christian alliance. This alliance are the western and European nations of today.

In the verse, it is stated very clearly that their are friends of each other. but history tells us that for thousands of years, they were enemies. So it must only mean a certain group of them.

Best wishes.

Offline Zack

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2014, 11:44:52 AM »
Hello,

So not to misquote the verse: "take not those who have taken your religion in ridicule"  ... It is referring to not taking as allies ANYONE who mocks your faith, whether they be People of the Book or non-believers. It is clear that this is simple good advice for people who are new Arab believers from a pagan background, have limited spiritual knowledge with no access to written scripture, whether that be the Qur'an or former Holy Books. They will be totally confused with the sectarian issues of the day, and basically given advice to stand strong as sectarian groups endeavor to entice them over.

We need to put things in context, not try and apply it to 21st century politics!!

Wasalam

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2014, 12:03:36 PM »
Dear All,

On a Facebook post [1], I humbly shared:

Quote
TAKING JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS FRIENDS

A very frequent question I receive from readers is whether Muslims can keep Christians and Jews as friends. This question is usually a result of an isolated reading of Quranic passages such as verses 3:28 and 5:51 which advance a general prohibition.

Those astute with Quranic methodology should be aware that many verses of the Quran are elaborated in other parts of the Quran and any 'summary' verses should ALWAYS be understood in light of the more elucidatory verses.

If one just relied on verses 3:28 and 5:51 alone, one would conclude that the prohibition was absolute against not only the disbelievers but also the People of the Book without distinction.

However, verse 5:57 provides the elucidatory narrative and the complete context:

005:057
"O ye who believe! take not for friends / allies / protectors (awliyaa) THOSE WHO TAKE YOUR RELIGION FOR A MOCKERY OR SPORT / RIDICULE OR FUN (huzuwan wala'iban), whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed)"

The above verse clearly clarifies both verses 3:28 and 5:51 by including both categories and makes it clear that the prohibition is ONLY restricted to those that take religion for a mockery or sport / ridicule or fun (huzuwan wala'iban).

To those who have never shown any animosity, one is only expected to show them kindness and deal with them justly.

060:008
"God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice"

We must always be aware of reading passages in an 'isolated manner' and should be prepared to subject the Quran to a thorough reading / understanding of its complete narratives.

I clarified the meaning of 'Awliya' as:

Quote
For those of you who have kindly asked, 'Awliya' is the plural of the Arabic word ‘waliy’ which is nuanced and can mean guardian, friend, a protector etc. Even believing men and women are awliya of each other (9:71) - protectors / friends / guardians etc. Hope that helps God willing.


REFERENCES:

[1] TAKING JEWS AND CHRISTIANS AS FRIENDS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/161484843988651
[2] Taking Jews, Christians or Disbelievers as Friends
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=260

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Mehdi

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2014, 12:23:38 PM »
Brother Joseph,

Thank you. This clarify things, especially the term "Awliya"

I think the Subject's name do not suit very well with the question asked in the beginning.

I'm seeking for guidance regarding participating in some gathering where sins are committed (alcohol, nudity), to know exactly what Allah wants us to avoid specially in our time and regarding the verse 6:70


The question was "Can we stay with those who drink.

And how far can we go? for example Going to a Cinema to watch movie which have nudity and bad scenes ont it..., going to a public beach/swimming pool with family (we know how people are dressed)

Should we avoid this kind of gathering ?


Offline good logic

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2014, 02:01:38 PM »
Greetings Mehdi.

If I understand correctly, you are asking " Are you going to be held responsible of what others do?"

According to Qoran GOD looks at our intention!

Are you with those " drinking" intending to drink, play and be merry?

Are you going to the pictures to watch nudity..?

Are you going to the beach to watch the people that are dressed inappropriately? and so on...

Of course in this modern society you may find yourself in "places" that are not appropriate...
For example I have met some of my friends/relatives in "pubs" and chatted with them. I have been to weddings of friends, wished them well, had a couple of dances and went home. I have been in the beach enjoying a swim and relaxing, reading a book... I have been watching the commonwealth games in Manchester and" streakers"  appeared all of sudden without warning...And so on...

It all depends on your intention. If you cannot help being somewhere where you do not want to be, keep GOD on your mind to stay " clean".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2014, 02:28:00 PM »
I'm seeking for guidance regarding participating in some gathering where sins are committed (alcohol, nudity), to know exactly what Allah wants us to avoid specially in our time and regarding the verse 6:70

The question was "Can we stay with those who drink.

And how far can we go? for example Going to a Cinema to watch movie which have nudity and bad scenes ont it..., going to a public beach/swimming pool with family (we know how people are dressed)

Should we avoid this kind of gathering ?

As-salam alaykum Mehdi,

Yes, verse 6:70 is noteworthy as well as the overarching message of the Quran contained in many other verses. Indeed, it is one's intention which is paramount. However, I feel we must be very careful to avoid situations where there is a heightened chance of the influences of dark forces where they are adept in leading mankind astray in small steps (2:168, 2:208).

024.021
"O ye who believe! Do not follow the footsteps of the Devil / Satan. And whosoever follows the footsteps of the devil, Indeed he commands immorality and wrong / evil..."

I have discussed this more comprehensively in the article [1] below.

I personally avoid such gatherings and situations. I am very careful in understanding the content of a movie before I watch it and avoid locations where there is open immodesty. I for one know that I am not immune from the guiles of Satan and his insidious plots. That is why I try to seek protection from God and avoid situations such as those you mention.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] SATAN'S GUILE - DARK FORCES OF EVIL
http://quransmessage.com/articles/satans%20guile%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Mehdi

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2014, 04:47:33 PM »
Alaykom assalam Brother Joseph,

Your answer has a Tremendous benefit for me.

May Allah Bless you,

Mehdi.

Offline good logic

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Re: Do not take the disbelievers as allies ?
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2014, 05:36:14 PM »
Peace Mehdi.

Qoran warns about "idol worship places" not to gather there or freq