AD-Djabal and AT-Thour

[Deliverance]

I want to finish my Research about Noah with the landing of the Arche.
Maybe you´ve heard that some years ago turkish and chinese evangelists archaeologist have found some wooden structures on the Mount Ararat in the east of Turkey.This Mountain is over 5000meters high!
We find in the quran the passage that the Arche landed on"Djabal Djudi",some located this place near the Ararat,its a Hill and not a massiv Mountain.
No my question is,does "Djabal" mean Hill and "Thour" is the proper Translation of Mountain?

Regards

[Joseph Islam]

As-salam alaykum

I have discussed the terms in the following article:

MOUNT SINAI  - BEHIND THE TRANSLATIONS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/tur%20FM3.htm

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph

[Sardar Miyan]

Jabal Judi and Kohe Thoor are different mountains while Bro JAI has explained about Thoor in his article I found on "Ask.com" that Jabal Judi is in Turkey & a small river passes not very close to Jabal Judi. I don't know if the river flowing away from the mountain is the same wherein Noah's ship was sailing.

[Deliverance]

Thank you Joseph for clarification,

Coming to know that "Thour" is a Place where Prophet Moses got Revelation,one had to read the first ayats of Sura 53 in a n other view.
It is beginnig with "Thour" and the next ayats is belonging to it,in my humble view.The closest Translation to this view is the Translation of Jusuf Ali"By the Mount (of Revelation); (1) By a Decree Inscribed (2) In a Scroll unfolded; (3) By the much-frequented Fane; (4)"

Are this ayats showing us the Story of Musas Inspiration of God to write the Law down?And did he write them on parchment instead of Stone?And the much frequented Fane(in all foonotes you read Kaaba)is it much possible that it is another Place ?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Deliverance,

As-salam alaykum

My sincerest apologies. I didn't understand your complete question. However from what I think I have understood, it is my humble view that the initial inscriptions of the Torah law were revealed on tablets which were subsequently taken down / reproduced on scrolls etc.

007:150
“And when Moses returned to his people, wrathful (and) in violent grief, he said: Evil is it that you have done after me; did you turn away from the bidding of your Lord? And he threw down the tablets (*lawh) and seized his brother by the head, dragging him towards him. He said: Son of my mother! Surely the people reckoned me weak and had well-nigh slain me, therefore make not the enemies to rejoice over me and count me not among the unjust people” [1]

*lawh which is a singular of the plural 'alwah' means a tablet or plank of some sort. For example:

"And We carried him upon an (ark) made of planks (alwahin) and nails / fibres of plam trees used to caulk ships..."

I hope that helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] BOOK WORSHIP AND REVERENCE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/book%20worship%20FM3.htm

[Deliverance]

Salam alaikoum Joseph,
Thank you for explainig the meaning of "Lawh" but I had to Apologie for not beeing clear,i quoted the wrong Sura,it is Sura 52:1-4.
"وَٱلطُّورِ (١) وَكِتَـٰبٍ۬ مَّسۡطُورٍ۬ (٢) فِى رَقٍّ۬ مَّنشُورٍ۬ (٣) وَٱلۡبَيۡتِ ٱلۡمَعۡمُورِ (٤)"
I thought because in your Article about "Thour" beeing a Place and not a Mountain the beginnig of Sura 52 is connected with Moses ministry and thats why asked if the law was written on lether? what does the arabic term in 52:3 mean "Fi Raq Manschur"

[Joseph Islam]

Salam alaikoum Joseph,
Thank you for explainig the meaning of "Lawh" but I had to Apologie for not beeing clear,i quoted the wrong Sura,it is Sura 52:1-4.
"وَٱلطُّورِ (١) وَكِتَـٰبٍ۬ مَّسۡطُورٍ۬ (٢) فِى رَقٍّ۬ مَّنشُورٍ۬ (٣) وَٱلۡبَيۡتِ ٱلۡمَعۡمُورِ (٤)"
I thought because in your Article about "Thour" beeing a Place and not a Mountain the beginnig of Sura 52 is connected with Moses ministry and thats why asked if the law was written on lether? what does the arabic term in 52:3 mean "Fi Raq Manschur"

Dear Deliverance,

Wa alaikum assalam

In the link [1] below, I wrote:

"With regards 52:2-3, I am inclined to read this with the oath in the first verse (52:1). The oath in 52:1 is against 'Tur'. Therefore, my reading of 'wakitabin mastur' is with respect to what was given to Prophet Moses (i.e. the inscribed Torah) and not a reference to the Quran.

As a point to note with regards the word 'Raqq' in 52:3, from its root it has the inherent meaning of something thin or of little thickness as compared to its breadth and length. Something thin, fine, flimsy, delicate. This most definitely refers to a well refined parchment or animal skin especially prepared for writing! For example the Arabic phrase, "raqqu kalamuhu" (His speech was or became tender, soft, sweet, graceful or elegant) carries that element of refinement in the word 'raqqu' from the same root."

Therefore, as I mentioned in my earlier post, the initial revelation was inscribed on tablets by God (7:145; 7:150) which would have then been subsequently taken down in a written form (on parchments or some written material - raqq). The verb ‘satara’ from which ‘mastur’ is formed means something written or inscribed.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] The Compilation of the Quran
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg1080#msg1080

[Deliverance]

Thank you,Joseph

Now,if 52:1-3 is connected with Moses,we had to take a view to Sura 52:4 "By the much frequented House"

I want your opion about this ayat which building is meant by this vers?In my Translation the Author is saying that it is the Kaaba.
We've seen that 52:1-3 is about Moses Revelation and 52:4 is beginnig with  " و " so is it a continuation of the previous vers.
Could you please give me you view Joseph which house is meant with the term in 52:4size=14pt]وَٱلۡبَيۡتِ ٱلۡمَعۡمُورِ (٤)[/size]

Regards

[Joseph Islam]

Thank you,Joseph

Now,if 52:1-3 is connected with Moses,we had to take a view to Sura 52:4 "By the much frequented House"

I want your opion about this ayat which building is meant by this vers?In my Translation the Author is saying that it is the Kaaba.
We've seen that 52:1-3 is about Moses Revelation and 52:4 is beginnig with  " و " so is it a continuation of the previous vers.
Could you please give me you view Joseph which house is meant with the term in 52:4size=14pt]وَٱلۡبَيۡتِ ٱلۡمَعۡمُورِ (٤)[/size]

Regards

Dear Deliverance,

As-salam alaykum

The conjunction 'wa' (and) may be a continuation of the verse but that doesn't mean that it is directly related to the previous sentence's subject matter. For example, I might say that 'Deliverance' is a QM Forum member 'and' he is a believer. Although the subject is 'you' but the fact that you are a believer has nothing to do with you being a QM Forum member.

Similarly, if you note verses 52:5 and 52:6, the conjunction 'wa' (and) is also present when the Quran speaks about a 'roof raised high 'and' the sea which is filled. This does not mean that Prophet Moses or the law he was given has anything to do with the roof being raised high or the sea being filled. The only connection is that they are 'God's' oaths.

Now this does not mean that there is no connection. However, the point I am humbly making is that there doesn't have to be a direct connection (other than the general oath that God is making against His Creation).

As to what the 'bayt' (house) frequented means in 52:4, this is subject to interpretation. It is noteworthy that in Surah Quraish (106), there is an implication of journeying which possibly includes a 'House'. If this interpretation is followed, then this may be a reference to the Ka'aba or a reference to a 'house' or sanctuary that was known in 7th century Arabia towards the Holy lands which the Arabs and others frequented. It may also refer to a generic 'place of worship' or sanctuary that believing generations have always used when directing their worship.

The latter interpretation finds support in verse 10:87 where prophets Moses and Aaron were inspired to turn their houses into oratories and the fact that there is a recognition in verses 22:40 that many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques were protected as they were places where God's worship was directed. The fact that places of worship belong to God is also confirmed in verse 72:19. These places of worship have always been 'frequented' places and hence a generic oath cannot be dismissed. 

In the end, this verse is subject to an open interpretation and one is only expected to extract the best meaning that they can (39:18, 39:55).

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph

[Deliverance]

Thanks for your view