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Offline good logic

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 11:01:28 AM »
Greetings Brother Joseph.

Thank you for your post.

Your quote: Therefore given your response, I understand that there is no explicit proof for the position you have posited.

You are entitled to your understanding of course.

However, taking the context of other verses, Qoran  backs up the position I have posted. Why?

1-[ 38:69] and [43:5]clearly indicate  something happened with us.
 We are humans in this life,after the feud and the classification of Angels,other creation(animals..), humans and Jinns.It does not mean we will be "humans" after this life or we were humans before that?( 38:68)
Also how do we explain the two deaths?:

They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"
قالوا رَبَّنا أَمَتَّنَا اثنَتَينِ وَأَحيَيتَنَا اثنَتَينِ فَاعتَرَفنا بِذُنوبِنا فَهَل إِلىٰ خُروجٍ مِن سَبيلٍ

I also stand with the claim Jinn are descendants of Satan: (18:50) and (7:27).

Because our life in this world is a series of tests designed to expose our polytheistic ideas, idol worship is the only unforgivable offence (4:48, 4:116).
 The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views (67:1-2).  Only those who are totally certain about God's absolute authority are redeemed (26:89).
 
This is my understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 11:51:31 AM »
salam good logic,

You wrote " I also stand with the claim Jinn are descendants of Satan"


Not all of them.  God reveals the creation of three beings: angels, jinn, and humans.  human creation follows the other two. Iblis was a high ranking jinn in the company of the angels when the command was issued.  Unlike the angels he could choose to disobey and exercised his free will in favor of rejection, thus he turns into shaytan, according to my understanding.  His offspring is the shayatin, the rebellious jinn.  The nas and the rest of the jinn are vulnerable to the whispers of the shayatin.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 01:41:09 PM »
Salam

Are you sure its iblis offsprings that are shayatin. From how I read 7:27 its satans and his qabiluhu. Qabilu would mean his tribe or soldiers or anyone who has the same intentions or the same goals. In that context I would say the shaytan and qubilu would be a reference to Iblis and other jinns but not restricted to only his offspring.  Duriyatti is the word I recall used for offspring.

Offline Zafreen

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 04:07:56 PM »
Thank u again for ur answers but Good logic, I think the assertions you have made can be proven otherwise. But I thank u for ur input. My question still remains. Whether u say sins or consequences, the helpless do suffer as Allah leaves the sinful to increase on their sins. A child is unlikely to say thank u for raping me, mutilating me, torturing me and killing me so I could reach paradise. Do u understand what I am trying to say? People who say they are glad they went thru the bad to get to the good, have not been thru enuf bad! I think its about employing, what I call, the 95% to 5% theory. Allah makes sense 95% of the time and so the 5% has to make sense whether we understand it or not.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 07:00:36 PM »
Greetings Brother Joseph.

Thank you for your post.

Your quote: Therefore given your response, I understand that there is no explicit proof for the position you have posited.

You are entitled to your understanding of course.


Dear Good Logic,

As-salam alaykum

While I respect everyone's prerogative to an opinion, I only humbly take out time to write, share and provide resources for a forum such as this, is so that readers who constitute sincere truth-seekers may become better informed, whether it is through discussions or asking questions.

It is an opportunity to weigh one's position and an opportunity to highlight the weakness in one's premises or thoughts. It is an opportunity for sincere truth-seekers to attempt to find a better, more plausible rationale to the subject matter at hand and not simply a platform to share their views, even though it may not be well evidenced, or the views of other scholars or schools of thought without scrutiny and critique.

With respect, I have often noted that in the face of strong constructive criticism of your thoughts, you (albeit respectfully) seem not to attempt to revisit your position and make use of this forum simply to part your views even though they may not be well-evidenced from a Quran's perspective.

My intention for this forum is to increase the standard of debate and information sharing with etiquette (the latter is something you are Alhumdolillah, very adept at). This cannot happen, if individuals are simply prepared to part with their world-views without strong support from the Quran.

In the end, yes, you are entitled to your opinion and this forum allows that with of course, some provisos. God willing, I hope to see a more constructive, deeper research shared on this forum which can only assist to elevate the level of material that is found here.

Always wishing you well.

Regards,
Joseph

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline ahmad

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 10:14:12 PM »
Dear Zafreen,

The problem of evil is a real issue for some people. Including me sometimes. But I think that there is an explanation. You see, in my humble opinion everything God does can be backed by 2 principles. Either Justice or Mercy.
Evil in this life can be considered as necessary justice or mercy from God.

First thing to be considered is that being tested is an essential part of this life(with either good or evil). This is part of God's mercy. As these tests allow humans to wake up and start moving towards the right path. Tests are a way to teach humans. Without them one could find himself deserving hell without realizing it. And it would not be unjust for him to go to hell. But because of God's mercy there are tests that allow help us in our spiritual growth.

But why test us in the first place ?

Again according to my understanding, its out of God's justice that we are tested. After all we are the ones who chose to be responsible of the AMANA.


Sometimes some people are a test for others. Just like the poor are a test for the rich.

But what did the poor do to be in this position in the first place ?

I think that it's part of God's wisdom. He knows what's best for every soul. Maybe if this poor person was made rich he would transgress. So God made him poor which is again mercy from God. Maybe being poor for a particular person is something necessary for his spiritual growth. Only God knows.


What I am trying to say is that sometimes God may do things that may seem evil from the outside because we do not see the whole picture. But maybe this evil is actually good. Because it may help a person enter paradise.

On the other hand, God also said that people who believe and do good deeds in this world, will live a good life. (On earth). so its not all evil. Also blessing in this world for some people are actually a bad thing. Because god uses them to mislead the wrongdoers. Sometimes there is underlying wisdom that we do not comprehend. Remember the story of moses and the man who was granted knowledge ?
 Another example is how god created people ranks over each other. This is necessary for life on earth to go on. Evil is this world can also be a punishment from God. (This is out of justice)
 
Finally, the reward of the hereafter is better and more lasting. So what ever befalls a person in this world. One must remember that its not the end. On the contrary its merely the beginning.

Quote
A child is unlikely to say thank u for raping me, mutilating me, torturing me and killing me so I could reach paradise


There is wisdom behind everything that happens. Even if it seems evil. God is just and merciful. So anything that happens can be originated from these 2 principles. Even if with our limited perception we can't see the wisdom behind what happens.

Hope this helps.

Offline Zafreen

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 11:42:40 PM »
Thank u Good logic for ur input but I fail to see ur logic, no pun intended.
I guess we need to employ what i call 95-5% theory!! If 95% of it makes sense then the other 5% must make sense too even tho I may not understand it. Anyone who says they are glad they went thru d bad as it made them who they are, have not gone they enough bad! Will a child who was kidnapped, sold, raped, mutilated and killed say to God, thank u as long as I reached paradise?
Whether we call it sin or consequence, the helpless suffer. Allah leaves the sinful to increase their sins and this impacts on the helpless.
Even the prophets needed their faith strengthened and we dnt have the miracles they had. We have a fallible logic. I dont see this question being answered fully.

Offline good logic

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2014, 01:12:46 AM »
Greetings Brother Joseph.

First thank you for the conversation.

Second I hope I always tried to provide verses from Qoran whenever I discussed a topic.

My aim is to discuss in a friendly and respectful manner.

 I also analyse the responses ,especially the verses of Qoran provided by others .

I also accept that there are differences,and it is important to challenge each other in search of the truth.

Finally, I respect the time and effort you have taken to create this website and I have no doubt that it is helping others.

With friendship.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Zafreen

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2014, 01:40:56 AM »
Sorry my post went out twice!

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2014, 04:47:43 AM »
Dear Zafreen,

As brother Ahmad mentioned, we oftentimes fail to see the big picture.  I hear your pain at the cruelty of man.  I'm still dealing with the chopped off heads and just this morning I felt a tremendous pain to read the rescue story of the abused elephant for the past 50 years, bound by spiked chains around the ankles. Lifelong torture.

The universe is built on dualities.  Evil is the implicit flip side of good.  They are complementary, one without the other cannot exist. Evil came into existence as a consequence with the creation of potential for good that is required for man to be able to reach his spiritual potential.  As someone said before, the world is an arena between the good and evil, with man holding the balance.  Yes it was man's choice exercised between the two types of existence offered in the Garden.  Man could continue to exist in a state of bliss under the care and protection of God, dependent eternal life with limited growth.  Man chooses the second existence that comes with a life of challenges, knowledge, responsibility, mortality, life full of pain and joy.  Natural and moral evil challenge man.  Man falls victim to the forces of physical nature as well as the nature of man himself. 

Why God does not intervene? Since our declaration of independence, God operates more in the background, patiently observing the unfolding of the events caused by us, subtly guiding and at times intervening but mostly giving us a chance to redeem ourselves and change our behaviors for the good of all.

Peace,

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline ahmad

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2014, 06:32:26 AM »
Dear Zafreen,

Quote
Anyone who says they are glad they went thru d bad as it made them who they are, have not gone they enough bad! Will a child who was kidnapped, sold, raped, mutilated and killed say to God, thank u as long as I reached paradise?


I just wanted to add something: We do not know a lot about paradise, we have not been there, therefore we can't say that people who suffered great injustice in this life will not be happy with paradise as a reward. We just can't because we do not know. Look at the following verses for instance.

[98:7] Saheeh International
Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
[98:8]
Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.


Furthermore, any suffering in this world ends but paradise does not, this is another thing to put in mind. Which brings me back to my point we do not see the whole picture nor do we know all the wisdom behind what's happening. The best thing to do is to purify ourselves, endure patiently and put our trust in God.


Hope this helps
Peace.  :)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2014, 07:47:05 PM »
Which brings me back to my point we do not see the whole picture nor do we know all the wisdom behind what's happening. The best thing to do is to purify ourselves, endure patiently and put our trust in God.

As-salam alaykum

This point by brother Ahmad is exquisitely elaborated in the narrative concerning Prophet Moses and is presented as deep learning for believers. The narratives make it clear that even a great patriarch such as Prophet Moses could never contemplate God's complete purpose / wisdom and found himself falling short of bearing with patience with regards to it.

This deeper learning was something Prophet Moses sought himself (18:66). Prophet Moses was warned that he would not be able to sustain with patience (18:67). The reason cited was that he did not possess complete understanding (encompassing knowledge) and thus, by deduction, he would not be able to sustain with patience (18:68).

  • A boat was marred / scuttled. Prophet Moses questioned the action in utter dismay (18:71). What he didn't know was that working boats were being seized by force by the orders of a king and by making the boat unserviceable; he assisted the poor men who worked hard on the river so that their means to a livelihood (their boat) wasn't taken from them (18:79).

    Moral - Trust in God's purpose and put faith in Him (3:159). We cannot fathom God's overarching wisdom.

  • A boy was slain. Prophet Moses exclaimed that the action was a horrid / evil thing. (18:74). What he didn't know was that God knew that the child would become an obstinate, rebellious individual and the parents were righteous people of faith (18:80). In this instance, a particular decision was made to exchange him for one better in purity, conduct and closer to compassion and affection. (18:81)

    Moral - Trust in God's purpose and put faith in Him (3:159). We cannot fathom God's overarching wisdom.

  • After being refused hospitality, a wall was repaired. Prophet Moses again questioned the action (18:77). What he didn't know was that a treasure belonging to orphan boys of the city lay beneath the wall and their father was a righteous man. God desired that their treasure be given to them when they reached maturity as a mercy from the Lord. (18:82)

    Moral - Trust in God's purpose and put faith in Him (3:159). We cannot fathom God's overarching wisdom.

Yes, there are differences in people's means. Some are wealthy, some not so; others destitute. Some of these differences are for the purposes of seeking labour (43:32), others for example, as a means to trial those with plenty to ascertain their extent of charity and as an opportunity to provide charity.

God makes it clear that some of us are a means of trial for others. There is no doubt about this.

025:020 (part)
"...And We have made some of you [people] as a trial for others - will you have patience? And your Lord is All-Seeing"

There are indeed atrocities committed. Some as a consequence as what our own hands reap (4:79; 30:41), and others, as a means for trial [1] & [2].

030.041
“Corruption does appear on land and sea because of (the evil) which men's hands have done, so that He may let them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return.”

Suffering and trials have been made clear as part of God’s purpose for His servants. There is no confusion about the matter. From a Quran’s perspective, it is a fact and the Scripture has exemplified this in many ways, including the sharing of experiences of others. The whole of Surah / Chapter 12 (Joseph) is one such example.

029.002
“Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?”

008.028
"And know that your wealth and your children are but a trial; and that it is God with Whom lies your highest reward"
 
003.186
"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and in yourselves; and ye shall certainly hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil, then that will be a determining factor in all affairs"
 
002.155
"And surely We will test you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere"

009:050-1
If good befalls you, it grieves them, and if disaster (Arabic: Musibatun) afflicts you, they say: Indeed we had taken care of our affair before; and they turn back and are glad. Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what God has decreed for us: He is our protector": and on God let the Believers put their trust.

So much of God's plan has been made clear in the Quran. I have already shared many of those verses in the articles below.

What we cannot fathom is due to an inherent limitation of not being able to see the future or fathom the unseen. This is where Tawakkal Ala Allah (trust / reliance in God) comes to the fore, as a fundamental component in a believer’s article of faith. [3]

Some ask the question, why did God just not create us and place us straight in a place of felicity, paradise? This would undoubtedly be an unjust thing if one only gave this matter some thought. With volition, and an element of free will, comes culpability, accountability. Why should two individuals with volition be simply given the same status in paradise, when inherently if they were to be trialled, one would have remained righteous, and the other, a manifest tyrant?

A testing ground is the inevitable result of being granted ‘volition’. IF man assumes such a role, a trust (amana), then he must also assume the responsibility that comes with it. [4]

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Suffering & Adversity
http://quransmessage.com/articles/suffering%20FM3.htm
[2] We will be Tested
http://quransmessage.com/articles/tests%20FM3.htm
[3] Tawakkal Ala Allah
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/301381193332348
[4] Trust to the Heavens, Earth and Mountains
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=85.0
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Zafreen

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2014, 12:40:08 AM »
Everything ypu all have said are the very things I have said so far. HOWEVER..... I do not think good cannot NOT exist at the absence of evil. Allah can do anything. Before jinns n humans with volition there was good without any bad. This question cannot b answered satisfactorily! It really cant. A child is not a man with volition!! It just receives pain and this pain i dnt understand. Allah knows our concept of time. We dnt view suffering like he does! He knows d end but we dnt. We use our fallible logic to fill in d gaps whereas the prophets had their faith strengthened even after being inspired! What does that tell us!!
Anyway thank u again but i dnt c us progressing

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2014, 01:22:05 AM »
salam Zafreen,

you said there was good without any bad once.  yes there was in the Garden.  they were in a state of bliss; but it was a controlled environment.  all their needs were met by God.  man's choice was between this blissful state, or a guilded cage existence and an existence that comes with knowledge, freedom and potential.  You cannot pick and choose from these two sets of existence. 

People reject to put goodness and evil or torture and mercy on the same continuum but good only exists with its duality evil just like other dualities of light and dark, positive and negative charge in the created universe by the wisdom of the Creator.   
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why test us
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2014, 01:28:43 AM »
We use our fallible logic to fill in d gaps whereas the prophets had their faith strengthened even after being inspired! What does that tell us!!
Anyway thank u again but i dnt c us progressing

Dear Zafreen,

As-salam alaykum

I have sincerely tried to provide you responses based primarily on the Quranic evidence in the form of comments and elucidating articles. I believe there to be sufficient proof in those verses to answer your question aptly. I can certainly see that others have also endeavoured to part with their opinion seemingly to the best of their abilities.

It is a pity that you do not agree with the perspective that is being shared and ultimately it is you that will have to come to terms with what is an existential reality, which is suffering and our overarching purpose on earth.

Thank you for your question and as you do not see the progression of this discussion any further, this thread will be closed forthwith. I sincerely hope and trust that you will find other discussions on various topics and material on this site of use in due course, Insha'Allah.  :)

Regards,
Joseph



PS: For interested readers, please see another link below where I discussed injustice and suffering from a Quran's perspective. The question that was asked was as follows:

Dear Brother Joseph,

Peace.

According to your study, how would you explain the way Quran deals with injustice and suffering in this world (in spite of an All Powerful God fully in control)? There is suffering which is man made by which man reaps what he sows, but things happen to people and nations (like famine, natural disasters, disease, tsunamis, birth of crippled children, death of infants and mothers or fathers of infants) etc. etc.


Injustice & Suffering
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=758
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell