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Offline Joseph Islam

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Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« on: November 17, 2011, 07:44:21 AM »
Dear All,

Salamun Alaikum.

One of the more common questions that I receive is with respect to the Qibla change, the location of the original sanctuary that Prophet Abraham (pbuh) built and the location of the original Masjid al Haram.

The main views that range are:

          (1) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was in Makkah (Traditional position)
          (2) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (pbuh) was towards the Holy Lands (My position)
          (3) The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah but in Jerusalem
          (4) The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah or Jerusalem but in Jabal al-Lawz
          (5) The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)
          (6) The different locations of the first Qibla

I have responded to many of you with my views on this matter which can be sourced from my articles. Many of you have provided an array of rich views citing your respective evidence for support.

I invite all those that have written to me directly and those that are interested in this discussion to have a civilised, thought provoking discussion on this thread. It is obviously a matter which is of keen interest to many of you that write to me.

Please don't feel shy to express your views. Your views will be respected. I have notified the moderator(s) to remain very vigilant with a view to maintain decorum on the forum and to allow all to express their views with a view to advance academic debate (keeping in mind the basic forum rules of course). I will also be keenly reading the responses.

Please share your views why you believe what you do and let the discussions develop, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph


PS:  My views on the Qibla change and the original sanctuary can be sourced from the following articles. God willing I will shortly be sharing another related article.

THE QIBLA CHANGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/qibla%20FM3.htm

PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm



'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 04:00:06 PM »
BY MEMBER: Wazir1961

Conclusions:

If we see all these verses in big picture, it becomes clear that Prophet Ibrahim PBUH and Prophet Ismail PBUH built the Kabah in Makkah and declared it as a Qibla for mankind. Later on, people of the Book changed their center of devotion (Qibla) to Jerusalem.

People of Book might be pursuing Prophet SAW and his followers to accept their wishes and possibly their Qibla (2:105, 2:109, 2:120, and 2:135). Moreover, objection raised in verse 4:142 also possibly implies that the people who put forward the question essentially asking Prophet SAW to accept their Qibla as a common ground to compromise. So, Allah SWT not only formally appointed Kabah as Qibla, But, He warned them (Prophet SAW and his followers) that 'If thou after the knowledge hath reached thee, Wert to follow their (vain) desires,-then wert thou Indeed (clearly) in the wrong '(verse 2:145).

So, when Prophet SAW received revelation or even before that he 'used to' believe Makkah a center of devotion (Qibla) and not Jerusalem (which was a center of devotion for people of the Book).

So, premise that Prophet SAW and his followers were praying towards Jerusalem and changed their direction toward Makkah, seem to be untenable.


FULL ANALYSIS AVAILABLE HERE:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/wazir1961/qibla%20change-wazir1961.htm

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2011, 04:37:25 PM »
The writer of this post is not an English speaker and makes use of Google Translate to converse. Please appreciate the efforts afforded by this reader to communicate with fellow believers and give due allowance for any weaknesses in the language conversion.

It is the argument that the reader posits which matters most.

QM Forum Admin


CONCLUSION

The original Masjid al Haram was not in Makkah or Jerusalem but in / around Jabal al-Lawz


Gabal musa , the tur sina- in fact- is in Arabia in the old Midian, and this is the same place, where Ibrahim built the house, where prophet Ilyas he catch himself in a cave and this is the holy land, the ancient house, the forbidden place- because in fact, the saudis close all the ground there/ it's forbidden to entrance....why?

There is a rock, he is splits into two sides, and it seems, that it was rushing water from this rock (Kaaba, the meaning> swelling breasts from young girls..?! it's the very perfect meaning from this stone, because he was swelling like the breasts, from the water, what after rushed out strongly) and not only a little bit.

And there is a altar in front of this mountain (Sina) , from Moses , beside we found rocks in a line (SAFA) and MARWA (I found a translation it's means 'the place where is running the water out,ore collecting the water together ') when we look all this signs, then is clear why Allah he speaks from a blessing place with Signs. (The Manna for the Bani Israel from Allah they became also in this Valley Bacca.)

Also the Sina, the mountain by himself is very special. He is a vulcano and he looks like a pyramid and the top is very black- (black stone?) exactly like the pyramid from Giza and the same of the one-dollar-note!!!

I'm sorry I make mistake when I write in english but to give you more infos, I will attach files that you can read. it seems, that the masjid al Haram is in this place and not in mecca. interesting also, there is a word in hebraec 'meccaca” 

Files attached: Please see link:  http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email1/makkah.htm

Furthermore:

(1)  The Quran says the qibla is Masjid al haram, the question still: is Masjid al Haram in Mekka?
(2)  We don't find the Kaaba  together with Mekka in the Quran, we find it with 'Masjid al Haram”:the Kaaba is only found together with Pilgrimage . But the Quran not says the Kaaba in Mekka.
(3)  The mount of the temple in Jerusalem in hebräic language means 'bait al haram', the ground of the temple was also a 'mustatil', the sanctuary from the Bani Israel was in Jerusalem. But the 'tur' is with 'baraka' and there, where Musa received the scripture. And Abraham left his 'Zuriat' in a valley near the 'balad  mubaraka'. I think, that is the same area.
(4)  Saudi Arabia was parted in three parts: a Syria part (capital Petra), a middle part (capital maybe Yathrib. Higra, Tayma) and the Arabia Felix with (sued-Arabia) the language were not the same , the Quran is clear the arabic from the middle (syroaramaenia), where we must search the town from Muhammads people, this is my own opinion.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2011, 08:08:39 PM »
 Assalam Bro. In my humble opinion first Qibla was towards Jerusalem on account of which the Jews were glad & Muslims were not happy. Allaha asked Prophet while actually during prayers in Masjid Qibalatain to turn towards Abrahams Masjid il Haram on which all Muslims were glad. This masjid is called Misjide Qiblatain because it has got two Qiblas. But after renovation of this mosque there is no old qibla. This information is authentic as Hajis visited long back & gone recently have told me. Thanks
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline chadiga

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 10:21:53 PM »
Die masjid al Quiblatain hat(te) zwei Quiblas, die leider zerstört wurden.(absichtlich...?) Wir müssen jedoch genau nachprüfen, ob sich diese zwei Quiblas nun in entgegengesetzter Richtung befanden oder eine Quibla in Richtung Jerusalem und die zweite in Richtung Mekka. Mekka liegt nämlich nicht in entgegengestzter Richung von Jerusalem, das wäre Medina oder Gabal al Lawz...

Mehr zum Thema unter dem folgenden link, auch in Deutsch
http://koransaussage.blogspot.com/2011/11/letzte-uberlegungen-zur-pilgerfahrt-und.html

Antwort auf die Aussage von Bruder wazir,
1.Woher nimmst du die Sicherheit, dass Abraham und Ismael das Haus in Mekka gebaut haben? Aus den Zweitquellen des Islams, der Koran erwähnt dies nämlich nicht
2. Wenn die erste Quibla Mekka war und die letzte genauso, weshalb sagt dann Gott "ich werde dir nun eine Quibla zuweisen, mit der du sicher zufrieden sein wirst..." das impliziert, dass die letzte nicht diesselbe ist, wie die erste. Dies kann gut möglich sein, denn es findet sich nirgends der Hinweis, dass Quibla 1 und 3 diesselbe seien...


FROM QM MODERATOR

For the benefit of all forum users the moderators have used Google Translate to translate the text above. We have not edited the translation and appears as is. Please see below (complete with any translation errors).

The masjid al Quiblatain has (had) two Quiblas, which were unfortunately destroyed. (Absichtlich. ..?) We need to check carefully whether these two Quiblas now in the opposite direction, or were in a Quibla toward Jerusalem and the second direction Mecca. Mecca does not lie in entgegengestzter rond of Jerusalem, which would Medina Jabal al Lawz, or ...

More on the topic at the following link, also in German
http://koransaussage.blogspot.com/2011/11/letzte-uberlegungen-zur-pilgerfahrt-und.html

Response to the statement of Brother wazir,
1.Woher you take security that Abraham and Ishmael built the house in Mecca? From the secondary sources of Islam, the Qur'an mentions this were not
Second If the first and the last Quibla Mecca was just, then why does God say "I'll now assign a Quibla, with which you will surely be satisfied ..." which implies that the latter is not the same as the first. This may well be possible, for there is nowhere to point out that Quibla were 1 and 3 have the same ...








 


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2011, 05:21:58 PM »
Dear All,

Salamun Alaikum.

Please see my support for the following statement:

"The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)"


IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm


Regards,
Joseph.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Saleh

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 04:56:53 AM »
Peace to All,
Bro Joseph,

After going through the articles and your analization, one can only say without doubt, it is a fact.

The Quranic perspective, House (Bayt), which is also 1st House,Sacred House, Ancient House, Frequent House, which is at Bakka and Masjid can only be the Sacred Masjid at Makkah. According to the Quran, The Ka'ba is associated with the Sacred House but now its incorporated in the Sacred Masjid.

With all these proofs, one can only come to a conclusion that the present hajj rituals is invalid?[already so many unquranic rituals are being practised], and now with this new evidence, how are we to carry out Hajj according to the Quran as we owe this to GOD.

The Quranic verse 95:2-3, which inform us about Mt Sinai(Jabal Lawz?) and a city. Is the city mentioned refering to Bakka? [Jabal Lawz is located at NW of Saudi Arabia, to east of the mountain is the Sea of Akabah.]

Peace.


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 05:52:46 AM »
Dear brother Saleh,

Salamun Alaikum

Thank you for your comments.

Please let me clarify my position further which I have argued for in my articles:

In my opinion:

     (a) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (ancient house) was at Bakkah not Makkah. These are two different locations [1]
     (b) The Ka'aba is associated with the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haram) and is in Makkah. [2]

However, I have also argued in section (-8-) of my article [1] below that:

The Ka'aba was made a place of monotheistic worship and ancient Abrahamic rites as explained in detail by the Quran were reinstituted at the Ka'aba (Makkah today). So the Hajj today at Makkah is correct and supported by the Quran in my personal opinion. Of course, there are practices that have been introduced and added to the Hajj today which I find no support for in the Quran. However, I have discussed those comprehensively in my Hajj related article [3] and with connected articles.

To answer your last question, I believe 95:3 and 'hada' (this) 'balad' (city) is a reference to Makkah similar to 90:1-2. 'Tur' has never been described as a city in the Quran (balad). 'Tur' has been described as a Holy valley (bil-wadil-muqadas - 79:16) consisting of a 'blessed' area (buqati mubaraka - 28:30) and not a city (balad).

I hope that this clarifies my personal humble opinion.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph


[1]   PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

[2]   IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm

[3]   THE HAJJ ACCORDING TO THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/hajj%20FM3.htm

Connected articles:

(a)    The 'Lost' Months of Hajj
(b)    Kissing the Black Stone - Veneration or an Idolatrous Practice?
(c)    The Seven Circuits of the Ka'aba
(d)    Zam Zam Water



'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2011, 05:46:34 PM »
BY MEMBER: Name Withheld


WHERE WAS THE OLD QIBLAH BEFORE MASJID AL-HARAAM IN MAKKAH?


The significance of Jabal al-Lawz - Member analysis

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email2/qiblah.htm



Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 06:12:51 AM »
BY MEMBER: Wazir1961

Conclusions:

If we see all these verses in big picture, it becomes clear that Prophet Ibrahim PBUH and Prophet Ismail PBUH built the Kabah in Makkah and declared it as a Qibla for mankind. Later on, people of the Book changed their center of devotion (Qibla) to Jerusalem.


Dear brother Wazir,

I am not sure I concur with your statement above from the analysis of the Quranic verses you have provided.

I have a humble rebuttal to this position. Please see the following article.

PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Saleh

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 01:45:46 PM »
Peace Bro Joseph,

Thank you very much for the explaination, actually i overlooked 5:97.

Further to

a. 03:97  - ......whoever enters it attains Tranquility.
b. 53:1-4 - By the Mount; By a Book inscribed; in a parchment unfolded; By the much Frequented House.
c.  95:1-3 - By the Fig; And the Mount of Sinai; An this City of Tranquility.

Does the House, Mount and City, the intricacies of the Quranic System which shows the 1st bless location?

My humble opinion. You are the expert. Correct me if i am wrong.

Salam Bro

Offline chadiga

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 08:37:12 PM »
A few facts that the area around Jabal al Lawz seem to be even more interesting.
The question of a city, this area could be assigned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tayma
Please compare the Koordionaten the oasis Tayma (with a huge fountain) with those of Jabal al Lawz.

one other interesting connection with Tayma:

Nabonidus' stay in Tayma
It is not clear yet why Nabonidus stayed in Tayma for so long. His reason for going there seems clear: to what Tayma important oasis, from where lucrative Arabian trade routes could be controlled. The Assyrians before him had already attempted to do the same. [9] However, why Nabonidus stayed for so long (probably about ten years, perhaps from 553-543 BC) and why he returned when he did remain unresolved questions. It has been proposed that this was because he did not feel at home in Babylon, Which was opposed to his emphasis on Sin. Regarding his return, this may have had to do with the mounting threat of Cyrus and growing disagreements with Belshazzar, who was relieved of his command directly after Nabonidus had come back, along with a number of administrators. [10] During his stay, Nabonidus Tayma adorned with a complex of royal buildings, most of Which have come to light during recent excavations. [11] (wikipedia Nabonidus)

It remains a mystery why this king left his kingdom for such a long time and moved into that haven, it was perhaps not only because of trade? also significant that Tayma was a renowned trading center, not like the historic Mecca

I found a very interesting note to himself (unfortunately in German, have found nothing in English.).

http://terra-x.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/18/0,1872,7165906,00.html


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 10:47:50 PM »
Peace Bro Joseph,

Thank you very much for the explaination, actually i overlooked 5:97.

Further to

a. 03:97  - ......whoever enters it attains Tranquility.
b. 53:1-4 - By the Mount; By a Book inscribed; in a parchment unfolded; By the much Frequented House.
c.  95:1-3 - By the Fig; And the Mount of Sinai; An this City of Tranquility.

Does the House, Mount and City, the intricacies of the Quranic System which shows the 1st bless location?

My humble opinion. You are the expert. Correct me if i am wrong.

Salam Bro


Salamun Alaikum brother Saleh,

Thanks for your comments and questions.

I don't profess to be an expert in anything. I am a simple humble servant of God who has submitted his cause to study His word and live life by it, God willing. I like anyone can be right or wrong and what I posit are merely my arguments.

I am open to a better argument if it is cogent and a better position to the one I may currently hold.

In response to your questions:

(a)  Yes
(b)  Possible - Not definitive, may or may not be the case. However, I think you mean 52:4, baiti ma'mur (instead of 53:1-4). Also 52:4 may be unrelated to 52:1-3. All Quranic oaths aren't always related.
(c)   Possible - As above, 95:3 may or may not be related to 95:1-2. But 'balad ameen' is most definitely a reference to the Prophet's city by virtue of the demonstrative pronoun 'hadha' (this). However, this does not mean it is related to 'Bakkah'.

Just because two cities have been referenced as 'secure' (ameen), where one finds 'aman', separated by over 1000 + years (3:97) and (95:3), does not necessarily make them the same city.
 
Please note the dialogue. By virtue of 3:99, it can be argued that it was the ‘People of the book' specifically that were a cause for hindrance / obstruction (tasudduna), possibly to a location mentioned in 3:96-97 (Bakkah), not the 'Mushrikeen' or Pagans. There seems to be some tension here whereby the new Arabian Muslims seem to be hindered from going to a particular place or being obstructed which seems to be connected to the People of the Book specifically.

This supports the assertion that Bakkah and Makkah were separate locations.

It seems probable, that this tension was also a contributory factor as to why the ancient rites were 're-instituted' at Makkah (as argued in section 8 of my article noted above), a place that was familiar to both the Prophet and the converted Pagans of Arabia.

I hope this helps.

Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Saba

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2011, 10:52:30 PM »
A few facts that the area around Jabal al Lawz seem to be even more interesting.
The question of a city, this area could be assigned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tayma
Please compare the Koordionaten the oasis Tayma (with a huge fountain) with those of Jabal al Lawz.

one other interesting connection with Tayma:

...

Dear sister Chadiga

Aslamaolaikum

Are we note assuming a lot from sources outside the Quran? Would this approach not be the same as using Islamic sources which are secondary to the Quran? How do we know any of this is right?

Thanks.

Saba.

Offline Wazir1961

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Re: Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2011, 05:02:24 PM »

Response to the statement of Brother wazir,
1.Woher you take security that Abraham and Ishmael built the house in Mecca? From the secondary sources of Islam, the Qur'an mentions this were not
Second If the first and the last Quibla Mecca was just, then why does God say "I'll now assign a Quibla, with which you will surely be satisfied ..." which implies that the latter is not the same as the first. This may well be possible, for there is nowhere to point out that Quibla were 1 and 3 have the same ...[/color]

1. There is no doubt that original House was built by Abraham PBUH and Ishmael PBUH, but the issue of its location is in debate. In my analysis, contention of the article is not where House was built? I have not analysed the issue of whether Makkah and Bakkah are same place or not. So, at this stage, you can ignore this argument which is one of the many arguments in the analysis.

2. Another question is why does God say "I'll now assign a Quibla, with which you will surely be satisfied ..." . In other word, what were reasons which made the declaration of Qibla necessary?

These reasons are mentioned in verse 2:143 as follow:

a) Verse 2:143 (Part): Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; In other words, Muslims were assigned responsibilty to vouchsafe over other nations and the Messenger was assigned responsibility to vouchsafe over Muslims, hence it became necessary to declare one universal Qibla for mankind which is done in this verse.

b)Verse 2:143 (Part): only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). In other words, to test followers who might have different directions of Qibla, but now after this declaration it become necessary for all to follow this Qibla as their Qibla. And that is why it was great dicision for people who were following other direction. (2:143 part: Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect)

Once formal declaration of Qibla is made, the next logical step is to order everyone to turn their faces to this Qibla which is mentioned in verse 2:144.

Verse 2:145 clearly warns believers not to compromise on issue of Qibla.

c) Before declaration of Ka'ba as universal Qibla, It might be a Qibla for Prophet SAW, his followers, his community and pagans. So, declaration of Ka'ba in Makkah as univesal Qibla definately please the Messenger as he used to consider it a Qibla.

d) There is no verse in Quran which instructed Prophet SAW to follow other Qibla before declaration of Ka'ba as universal Qibla for mankind.

I hope, this explanation will address your questions.