Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

[chadiga]

Reply to Joseph.Du brother say (rightly):                 Errors may be found in the language, I'm sorry
 

1.historical source is found for X, does not mean that X did not exist.
Just because the Quran does not directly connect the Ka'aba in Makkah with one verse does not mean they are not connected. There is an argument inherent fallacy of exhaustive investigation within hypothesis inherent in approach.
Second Just because something is not X, does not mean it is Y. Therefore Y must be proved beyond reasonable doubt. So, we must look at all related verses to ascertain as best we can, how cogent a Particular hypothesis remains.
3.There is no reason to suggest that non-Muslim sources were or are better informed than Islamic sources.
One can not conclude that just because the authenticity of many Islamic traditions may be disputed, that it can not be correct about a Particular Matter.

I'm sorry if I come again to speak at various points. First I want to again clarify that I do not claim that the traditional Mecca not exist-it's all about me, all arguments are logically and factually-to-compare.
1It is possible that they just do not belong together!. I have never claimed that Mecca does not exist, however, is the historic Mecca möglcherweise not equal to the Mekka today
2.Nochmals: I never said that the only possibility mentioned, because  when I read all the verses, i can not read out the Reinstituted rites in Mecca
3. It's not about that no muslim resources are better than others, it's about whether we are still somewhere finds evidence finden.Archäologische facts that can be misinterpreted. It can, however, the secondary sources also. its not a logical approach, on the one hand  completely reject the ahaadeeth and  never to consult it, in the absence of supporting evidence in the Qur'an, however overlooking  the same.
Then we could also consider that example, the seventh month in the Jewish calendar, which is considered particularly in the fasted and was equated with the 7.islam.month, which can also be accepted in the Hadith as sacred .This we ignore  at a Analysis of the sacred months but in the case from Mekka not.?

Answer for brother Wazir:

Thank you for your quickly Answer.zou write:

First There is no doubt that House was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael PBUH , but the issue of its location is in debate. In my analysis, contention of the article is not where House was built? I have not Analysed Whether the issue of Makkah and are Bakkah same place or not. So, at this stage, you can ignore this argument Which is one of the many arguments in the analysis.

c) Before declaration of Ka'ba as Universal Qibla, It might be a Qibla for Prophet SAW, his followers, his community and pagans. So, declaration of Ka'ba in Makkah as univesal Qibla definitely please the messenger as he used to consider it a Qibla.

d) There is no verse in Quran Which prophet SAW instructed to follow other before declaration of Qibla Qibla Ka'ba as universal for mankind.

You say on one hand that you have not analyzed whether Bekka and Mecca are the same place but in c) and) assoziierst you immediately  the Kaaba with  Mecca. The Kaaba is in the Koran clearly associated with the pilgrimage. Why do we rely entirely on this issue automatically to the secondary sources, if Allah in the Koran does not? I want by my side I just do not stiffen, as both possibilities are equally possible.


Answer for Saba Sheik:
 

I think that it is in the sense of the Koran, all possible sources to proof. Historical excavations can help us, where there written sources (which have been changed) is no longer able. We are looking for the truth, so yes, we also take some of the Bible to argue (this source is not even more authentic). We should put together all the particles of the puzzle of the Koran and in the light illuminate. That's my opinion.
 
I thank you all and hope that you forgive a Querschlägerin their tenacity ..

[Wazir1961]

Please see my support for the following statement:

"The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)"


IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm

When we call it "The Original Masjid al Haram", Why we call it original? What was significance of "Masjid al Haram" before it declared as Qibla in verses 2:142-146? Who built it?

Will you shed some light on these questions?

[Wazir1961]

You say on one hand that you have not analyzed whether Bekka and Mecca are the same place but in c) and) assoziierst you immediately  the Kaaba with  Mecca. The Kaaba is in the Koran clearly associated with the pilgrimage. Why do we rely entirely on this issue automatically to the secondary sources, if Allah in the Koran does not? I want by my side I just do not stiffen, as both possibilities are equally possible.

Quote from the post of Joseph Islam at Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 05:52:46 AM

In my opinion:

     (a) The original sanctuary built by Prophet Abraham (ancient house) was at Bakkah not Makkah. These are two different locations [1]
    (b) The Ka'aba is associated with the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haram) and is in Makkah. [2]

However, I have also argued in section (-8-) of my article [1] below that:

The Ka'aba was made a place of monotheistic worship and ancient Abrahamic rites as explained in detail by the Quran were reinstituted at the Ka'aba (Makkah today). So the Hajj today at Makkah is correct and supported by the Quran in my personal opinion. Of course, there are practices that have been introduced and added to the Hajj today which I find no support for in the Quran. However, I have discussed those comprehensively in my Hajj related article [3] and with connected articles.
--------------------------------------------

I hope this will answer your question.

Wazir

[Wazir1961]

BY MEMBER: Name Withheld


WHERE WAS THE OLD QIBLAH BEFORE MASJID AL-HARAAM IN MAKKAH?


The significance of Jabal al-Lawz - Member analysis

http://quransmessage.com/forum/members/email2/qiblah.htm

Quote from analysis:

'The scholars give us the opinion that 'Hateem' was initially part of the main building, and praying inside 'Hateem' is regarded as praying inside Kaa'ba itself.' Moreover, in fig 2 the direction of prayer is mentioned.

If we accept this premise, logical questions are:
1) Do you think person standing in semi-circle of 'Hateem' pray facing another direction while keeping his back towards Kaa'ba?
2) While praying in vicinity of Kaa'ba who will pray in another direction?
3) If one is praying in another direction, then, why would he come near Kaa'ba in first place?

Other questions are:
1) Is it appropriate to use current map to understand situation of 7th century or prior to that?
2) Is there any evidence suggesting that people lived in Makkah used to pray in direction of Jabl Al Awz?
3) Is there any evidence suggesting that people of Book ever prayed in direction of Jabl Al Awz ?
4) What is significance of alignment line you drawn in pictures? There can be many places in world aligning with Kaa'ba. So, what it proves?

I hope that the person (as name has been withheld) who did analysis and/ or advocating that  Jabl Al Awz was a original Masjid Al Haram will answer above cited questions.

Thanks in advance.

[Joseph Islam]

Please see my support for the following statement:

"The original Masjid al Haram was in Makkah (My position and the traditional position)"


IS MAKKAH THE ORIGINAL LOCATION FOR THE MASJID AL-HARAM?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm

When we call it "The Original Masjid al Haram", Why we call it original? What was significance of "Masjid al Haram" before it declared as Qibla in verses 2:142-146? Who built it?

Will you shed some light on these questions?

Brother Wazir,

Salamun Alaikum

In response to your first question:

We know from the Quran that a 'Masjid al Haram' exists. Some Muslims (and non-Muslims) believe that the Quranic Masjid al-Haram was not in Makkah but at another location.

My article that you have cited supports the notion that the Quranic 'Masjid al-Haram' (sanctuary) was in Makkah in line with the traditional position.

Hence my use of the term 'original'.


In response to your second question:

The significance of the Masjid al Haram is clear from the Quran:

    (a) Verse 5:97 clearly tells us that the Ka'aba was made the Masjid al-Haram
    (b) The Ka'aba was originally a pagan place of worship (8:35)
    (c) The Masjid al Haram was a place pagans undertook maintenance of the place and assisted non-believing pilgrims such as attending to them by giving them water (9:19)
    (d) Masjid al-Haram was a place in which the pagans denied believers so must have initially rested control over it (48:25)


In response to your third question:

The Quran does not inform the readers as to 'who' built the 'Ka'aba'. (Irrelevant from a Quran's perspective) It has been introduced as a pagan sanctuary which later became a focal point for the new Muslims of Arabia. Muslims assume that Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael built the Ka'aba. The Quran makes no such claim. As per the Quran, the original house built by Prophets Abraham and Ishmael was at 'Bakka' not 'Makkah' (3:96).  There is no Quranic proof that the two are synonymous. I have already posited my arguments with regards this in a separate article.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm


I hope that answers your questions from my perspective, God willing.

Joseph.

[Saleh]

Salamum Alaikum,

Base on the Quranic intricacies and the Articles provide by Bro Joseph and also informations form my brothers and sisters of this forum, I found it rational to say that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah could be the Masjidil Aqsa [17:1].

Masjidil Aqsa - Place of worship in remote region. The word Aqsa which means remote like isolated,in the wilderness or mountainous. During the time of the Prophet, Jerusalem were flourishing with peoples comprising of the people of the book. As such it cannot be at Jerusalem.

Q-03:97 and 22:26, The first house was a Masjid,
Q-28:22-30, tell us that Prophet Moses was first summoned by GOD at Tursina, Madyan.
Q-52:01-04, Tell us that the Tur is asociated with the House. Since there are only two sanctuaries mentioned in the Quran:
1. Q-03:96-97, 02:125, 14:37, 22:26-33 which is at Bakkah and
2. Q-05:02,95,97, 08:35, 48:25-27, which is the Sacred House [Ka'ba] in Makkah,
Thus the House mentioned in 52:04  can only be the one that was built by Prophet Abraham in Bakkah, Madyan.
Furthermore, Q-95:02-03, tell us that the Tursina is in Arabia. Historical documents shows that Madyan is in NW Arabia which is a remote mountainous region.
There are also archeological artifacts found at the seabed of Gulf of Aqaba, where the remains of the Egytion army were and these were dated back to the Exodus of the Israelites - www.wyattmuseum.com
However, archeological artifacts have nothing to say about these miracles whether they happend or not. It is a matter of faith and the Quran is the miraculous gift that GOD has given us.
It is unequovical that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia, was the Masjidil Aqsa where propbaly all the prophets were summoned during their ministries including the Last Prophet - Q-17:01 & 53:01-18.

Salam

[Wazir1961]

I found it rational to say that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah could be the Masjidil Aqsa [17:1].

During the time of the Prophet, Jerusalem were flourishing with peoples comprising of the people of the book. As such it cannot be at Jerusalem.

Q-52:01-04, Tell us that the Tur is asociated with the House. Since there are only two sanctuaries mentioned in the Quran:
Thus the House mentioned in 52:04  can only be the one that was built by Prophet Abraham in Bakkah, Madyan.

It is unequovical that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia, was the Masjidil Aqsa where propbaly all the prophets were summoned during their ministries including the Last Prophet - Q-17:01 & 53:01-18.

Salam

Dear Brother Saleh,

Firstly, it seems to me that your main argument is based on verse 52:1-4. But, there is no connection between verse 52:1 and 52:4. Both are independent statement.

Second, Look at verse 3:97
Feehi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibraheema waman dakhalahu kana aminan walillahi AAala alnnasi hijju albayti mani istataAAa ilayhi sabeelan
In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey, (Yusuf Ali)

Now, as per verse 3:97, Pilgrimage was declared duty on men by Allah.
So, if you argue that Masjidil Aqsa, Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia was First House of Allah built by Prophet Abraham; then we have to believe that Allah gave site to Prophet Abraham(22:26), ordained Hajj and still nobody visited it in known history and nobody visits it. How is this possible? Will you explain please? Please remember Quran assert that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Knowing.

Mark the contrast: People were coming to Makkah for pilgrimage of Cuboid and idols installed in it before Prophet Muhammad and till date people go there for pilgrimage.

Regards,

Wazir

[chadiga]

dear sisters and brothers
I've been thinking more about the subject of the original Masjid and would like to share with you my thoughts:
The first thing I would point to an appendix that gives us a little more insight on the Quibla change.http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
Based on these findings it seems possible that the original Quibla was
Jabal al-Lawz , Mecca, Or as mentioned, less the Quibla as a specific place, rather then a directional information, ie. the pointing  to Arabia itself

When situating the Masjid al Haram ever I run the following points:
-Changing the Quibla, that should have been finished from the quranique side at the death of the Prophet, was not clear until much later
- The question why Malik wanted to move the pilgrimage to Jerusalem (in this case I need clear more facts: Where does this knowledge, what were the motives, political situation,  among the ummah: where are the reputable sources that will help us? ? Or is there just speculation?)
- The question of Mecca (where was Mecca, the fact that it is said in the secondary literature, Mecca was significant, however actually was not,  that the concealment of the facts, the motives of both sides :-Westerners Orientalists who  would deny Mecca and  Muhammad and want to interpret Islam as a direction of Christianity,- the Muslim side,  their position is based on the hadith, some of which clearly excessive and does not correspond to the truth)
-There seemed to be not only one Kaaba, but more-so the question arises, how do we know which was the most important ?
- The context of a pilgrimage rites in Mecca as a new institution only pursuant to a Koranic verse, for me this is not clear, however, clear, that Mecca today is the absolute center of Islam

Conclusions:

- Could it be because Allah is Knower, Seer and The Most Honorable, he has made this question EXTRA not clear? Allah is always very clear in his statement. Why this ambiguity in such an important issue? Here I come slowly to the conclusion, that maybe God wants us to push, do not fix us for one special sanctuary, a rite-He wants to encourage us to think about Abraham, about the pre-Islamic period, about Judaism and Christianity, He always points , that the Deen of Islam was and remains for all the times the same.
-  Because we see these ambiguities in the story, we are encouraged to ponder  much more deeply into the origins of the Deen, as he calls Allah. It causes us to reflect, not just blindly go on pilgrimage to a place. It brings us perhaps to make a pilgrimage to Mecca, after the Jabal al Lawz, to Jerusalem, to the undisputed holy land and its history as a whole
going to reconnect, to come toghether once more, not to separate ...?
thank you all for your opinions. Salam

[Saleh]

Salamun Alaikum Bro Wazir and All

1. Thank you very much for your reply and INSHA ALLAh, I will try to explain my opinion, actually I am a learner, so please bear with me and yes, the Quranic verses [52:1-4] is connected. The Quran is not as what  the sceptic Joseph Smith wrote:
" ..... The Qur'an, on the other hand, reads more like a jumbled and confused collection of statements and ideas, many of which bear little relationship to preceding chapters and verses. Many scholars admit that the Qur'an is so haphazard in its make-up that it requires the utmost sense of duty for anyone to plough through it!"

The answer to the sceptic is what the Quran says:

"We did not leave anything out of this book" 6:38
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114
"The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient" 6:115
"This is not fabricated 'hadith'; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe" 12:111
"We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters" 16:89

And I do concur with Bro Irfan on his comprehensive argument with regards to the topic 'Compilation of the Quran' and 17:01, 52:1-4 are also connected. Check it out.

2. If you could go into the articles that Bro Joseph set up - Prophet Abraham Original Sanctuary - At Bakkah or Makkah - [8] Ancients Rites were Reinstitued at The Ka'ba,

05:97-GOD has made the Ka'ba, The Inviolable House, an establishment for mankind [qiamallinnas], and The Sacred Month an The Offerings and The Sacrificials Animals with Garlands; this is that you may know that GOD knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and that GOD is the knower of all things

This verse is futher supported by verse 22:25
Surely those who disbelieves and hinder [men] from GOD's way and from The Inviolable Mosque which We have made equally for all men, the dweller therein and the visitor and whoever shall incline therein to wrong unjustly, We will make him taste of a painful chastisement.

You said,
Mark the contrast: People were coming to Makkah for pilgrimage of Cuboid and idols installed in it before Prophet Muhammad and till date people go there for pilgrimage.

This is in my mind, we were told to face the Sacred Masjid [02:144] - a focul point, where ever we are but where are we to face once we are there?  Are we suppose to face the ka'ba and bow and prostrate it? There is an article with regards to the 'Hateem' and its facing Jabl AlAwz? Can you explain that?

GOD is the hearer, the knower - 06:115

Salam Bro

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum dear brother wazir

you say:

Now, as per verse 3:97, Pilgrimage was declared duty on men by Allah.
So, if you argue that Masjidil Aqsa, Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia was First House of Allah built by Prophet Abraham; then we have to believe that Allah gave site to Prophet Abraham(22:26), ordained Hajj and still nobody visited it in known history and nobody visits it. How is this possible? Will you explain please? Please remember Quran assert that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Knowing

.

in fact we are not know, if Abraham and his people or any ancient prophet was make the pilgrimage to the Jabal al Lawz or not. in fact, we know not to much, also the history around Jesus is not clear at all- what we know, there was a temple in Jerusalem and we can see the Dome of the Rock today with quranic inscriptions- we have one the other side the stories from many sanctuaries in old Arabia and the named Kaaba in Mecca  today. but we can't be sure from its originality , we all know, that history is based up old stories and artefacts , we was not there in the time of the prophet...
what we have in our hand is only the Quran who tell us, that he is clear- then why we must discuss to much? maybe our receivers are not clear...or because we are -in the eyes from most of the Muslims- apostates and all this questions arised because we leave the right way... (statement from my husband

[Saleh]

Salamun Alaikum Sis Chadiga and All,

Q - [3:96] The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people. Also read 22:26-33.

This verse tell us that all people who believe since Prophet Abraham carried out hajj ritual. Islam is as old as Prophet Abraham but men tends to go a stray after the revelation came to them. As for Prophet Jesus, The Quran has a comprehensive instruction about him and his book.

Since this is a forum, I believe most of us here like to share our ideas to a certain extend as long as we do not cross the line. 

[5:101] O you who believe, do not ask about matters which, if revealed to you prematurely, would hurt you. If you ask about them in light of the Quran, they will become obvious to you. GOD has deliberately overlooked them. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.

[5:102] Others before you have asked the same questions, then became disbelievers therein.

Salam

[Wazir1961]

1. ...., and yes, the Quranic verses [52:1-4] is connected. ......

2. If you could go into the articles that Bro Joseph set up - Prophet Abraham Original Sanctuary - At Bakkah or Makkah - [8]

....., where ever we are but where are we to face once we are there?  Are we suppose to face the ka'ba and bow and prostrate it? There is an article with regards to the 'Hateem' and its facing Jabl AlAwz? Can you explain that?

Dear Brother Saleh,

1). I agree with you that each sura and verse are connected, but it does not mean that we can connect any two verses to prove our point. So, let me elaborate regarding point # 1.

Verse 52:1, Verse 52:2-3, Verse 52:4, Verse 52:5 and Verse 52:6 are independent to each other and connected to verses 52:7 and 52:7 onward independently and collectively, but these verses are not inter connected.  If you believe that verse 52:1 and verse 52:4 are connected, then please explain how verse 52:2-3, 52:5 and 52:6 are connected to verse 52:4?

2) In article "PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ORIGINAL SANCTUARY - AT MAKKAH (MECCA) OR BAKKAH (BACA)?" Brother Joseph made argument that "(3) NO HEBREW PROPHET HAS BEEN KNOWN TO PERFORM PILGRIMAGE AT MAKKAH".

So, I am putting up same argument to you. In light of verse 3:97, can you present any evidence to prove that  any Hebrew Prophets or their followers ever did pilgrimage in Bakkah, Madyan, NW Arabia? and do you have any evidence to prove that Bakkah was located there?

For final point, I am reproducing my comments, I made on November 26, 2011 above, to the proponents of idea that  Bakkah was located at Jabal al-Lawz, Madyan, NW Arabia.
---------------------------------
Quote from analysis:

The scholars give us the opinion that  'Hateem ' was initially part of the main building, and praying inside  'Hateem ' is regarded as praying inside Kaa 'ba itself.” Moreover, in fig 2 the direction of prayer is mentioned.

If we accept this premise, logical questions are:
1) Do you think person standing in semi-circle of  'Hateem ' pray facing another direction while keeping his back towards Kaa 'ba?
2) While praying in vicinity of Kaa 'ba who will pray in another direction?
3) If one is praying in another direction, then, why would he come near Kaa 'ba in first place?

Other questions are:
1) Is it appropriate to use current map to understand situation of 7th century or prior to that?
2) Is there any evidence suggesting that people lived in Makkah used to pray in direction of Jabl Al Awz?
3) Is there any evidence suggesting that people of Book ever prayed in direction of Jabl Al Awz ?
4) What is significance of alignment line you drawn in pictures? There can be many places in world aligning with Kaa 'ba. So, what it proves?

I hope that the person (as name has been withheld) who did analysis and/ or advocating that  Jabl Al Awz was a original Masjid Al Haram will answer above cited questions.

Thanks in advance.
--------------------------------------------------------
So, will you please answer my above questions as you wrote that "It is unequovical that the first House built by Prophet Abraham and his son in Bakkah, Madyan,NW Arabia, was the Masjidil Aqsa where propbaly all the prophets were summoned during their ministries including the Last Prophet - Q-17:01 & 53:01-18."  ?

regards,

Wazir

[chadiga]

Dear brother wazir
I want to come out, now that it seems so important to you. I have posted  this theory of Jabal al Lawz to brother Joseph.  But I must emphasize again that I have never claimed that this theory is the absolute truth. Please let me living... Once again I've looked at all relevant points, plus Posts, plus articles, I have now written down all my thoughts on this subject, according to my possibilities. I apologize for the bumpy language, I have translated it with Google. For the verses of the Quran, I would ask everyone to take a reliable translation, since my post certainly errors. I hope that this will ensure the outstanding issues on your part, as well as possible. Many thanks to all.

http://koransaussage.blogspot.com/2012/01/pilgrimage-last-edition.html


And i'm sorry that my answer came so late, but i have three children and they need me also a little bit...

[chadiga]

Salam again
i found a post anywhere, very interesting for the topic:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603245.0
salams

[Wazir1961]

Dear sister Chadiga,


First, let me thank you for revealing your identity as proponent of theory of Original House at Jabal al Lawz, Madyan.

Second, when you proposed the theory, you should answer legitimate questions of forum members, because, many people visit this forum to seek truth. So, to confuse them with theory and not answering their questions goes against the purpose of the forum.

So, if you still believe in your theory, you should provide rational bases for the belief and answer the questions cited in my previous post.

Third,  you quoted translation of verse 21:71 in your article as under:

'œ 21.71 And we delivered him (speaking of Abraham) and Lot to the land which we have blessed for the
Abraham and Lot took refuge in the blessed land Bakka. In the land of Midian.'

Will you explain how you arrive to words 'œBakka. In the land of Midian' in your translation? (I have not seen these words in this verse in any translation).

I am providing every word of verse with its translation, for ready reference, for you and for forum members, below:

21:71:1 / wanajjaynāhu /And We delivered him
21:71:2 / walūṭan / and Lut
21:71:3 / ilā / to
21:71:4 / l-arḍi / the land
21:71:5 / allatī / which
21:71:6 / bāraknā / We (had) blessed
21:71:7 / fīhā / [in it]
21:71:8 / lil'ʿālamīna / for the worlds.
(Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=21&verse=71)

So, will you provide bases and authority to add words in verse to prove your theory?

I see many holes in your theory, but at present I pointed out main points. So, I hope you will address these questions.

I understand your personal circumstances, so take your time to reply. I am not in hurry.

Regards,

Wazir