Original Sanctuary, Masjid al-Haram and the Qibla Change

[chadiga]

dear brother Wazir
First Point, of course,  Midian is not mentioned in the Koran, this is an interpretation on my part, it should be in kursiv letters , to emphasize the difference.
You know, a theory is primarily here to make you reflect on it. I have said several times that I've never claimed to be complete. Every day I learn again something new. So it makes me out of nothing at all to admit that I could be wrong ....
I have trouble  to recognize Mecca as the place of pilgrimage. I think I have proven this with my post. But where we have to make the pilgrimage, where the real masjid al haram is that it seems to me still not clear.
I read new theories, all based on the Koran, all must be looked at compared. So I take me back and leave the field for the more learned...
You say that my theory has several holes. I see confusion too! tell me where you see the holes.
Either I give it up or we go on again ... Salaam and thank you for your answer.

[Saleh]

Dear Bro Wazir

You quote on 07/01/2012:

1). I agree with you that each sura and verse are connected, but it does not mean that we can connect any two verses to prove our point. So, let me elaborate regarding point # 1.

You agree and at the same time you disagree? You need a perfect sentence then you will agree that one verse in one particular sura is connected to another verse of the other sura? Then why did GOD said - 04:82 - Why don't you ponder/analyze the Quran. Bro, if you analyze the Quran then you will have a better understanding of the intricacies of the Quranic system.

And you quote on Jan 08 2012:
So, if you still believe in your theory, you should provide rational bases for the belief and answer the questions cited in my previous post.

Third, you quoted translation of verse 21:71 in your article as under:

'21.71 And we delivered him (speaking of Abraham) and Lot to the land which we have blessed for the
Abraham and Lot took refuge in the blessed land Bakka. In the land of Midian.'

Will you explain how you arrive to words Bakka. In the land of Midian in your translation? (I have not seen these words in this verse in any translation).

So where can it be? Is the interpolation not relevent?
[2:125] We rendered the house a safe sanctuary. You may use station of Abraham as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those organization [who follow millat Abraham], as a retreat and those who bow and prostrate."

[3:96] The first house established for men is the one in Bakkah; full of blessing and guidance for all nation.

[3:97] In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

[22:26] We appointed Abraham to establish the House: "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those organization (who follow millat Abraham), those who stand and those who bow and prostrate.

[22:27] "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."

[22:28] They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."

[22:29] They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and circumambulate the ancient house.

and

37:133-138 - And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. And you pass by their ruins in the morning. And in the night. Do you not comprehend?

Prophet Lot was saved and delivered to the blessed land. From the verse, the ruins of the town are located on an often-travelled trade route which Prophet Muhammad and his people knew very well:

And it is on an established path. In that is a sign for the faithful. - 15:76-77

And the companions of the woods were also wrong doers. We exacted tribution from them. They were both on an open highway, plain to see. - 15:78-79

So, both the people of Prophet Lot and the people of Shuaib - companion of the woods, were near to the people of Prophet Muhammad. The people of Shuaib was in Madyan.

Again You quote on 07/01/2012:

Verse 52:1, Verse 52:2-3, Verse 52:4, Verse 52:5 and Verse 52:6 are independent to each other and connected to verses 52:7 and 52:7 onward independently and collectively, but these verses are not inter connected.  If you believe that verse 52:1 and verse 52:4 are connected, then please explain how verse 52:2-3, 52:5 and 52:6 are connected to verse 52:4?

My opinion:-

52:1 - Tur - It is the hallow ground where Prophet Moses was summoned by GOD - 25:22-30. This verses are connected to verses 95:2-3.
52:2-3 And the book written on parchment unfolded - These verses are connected to 53:13 - The second decent of Jibril and 75:17 - Compilation of the Quran and 25:32 - Arrange in a specific sequence.
52: By the House most frequented.
These verses tell us that the Quran was handed over to the Prophet Muhammad at the Tur juxtapose to the House after it was compiled and arrange in a specific sequence.
52:6-7 - the knowledge that is within the Quran.

There are lots similiraties between Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Moses. Both were given Furqan, 
Prophet Muhammad - 02:185
Prophet Moses         - 02:53 & 21:48
the only difference is that GOD spoke to Prophet Moses direct - 04:164.

Peace Brother Wazir

[Saleh]

Salam Bro Wazir

Plz refer to my opinion on 1. Tur - read 28:22-30 instead of 25:22-30. it was a typo,

Sorry Bro

[Wazir1961]

tell me where you see the holes.

Dear Sister Chadiga,

First answer my questions, then I will show you holes of theory. Once you will try to answer my questions, most probably you  will notice a few holes.

Regards,

Wazir

[Wazir1961]

My opinion:-

52:1 - Tur - It is the hallow ground where Prophet Moses was summoned by GOD - 25:22-30. This verses are connected to verses 95:2-3.
52:2-3 And the book written on parchment unfolded - These verses are connected to 53:13 - The second decent of Jibril and 75:17 - Compilation of the Quran and 25:32 - Arrange in a specific sequence.
52: By the House most frequented.
These verses tell us that the Quran was handed over to the Prophet Muhammad at the Tur juxtapose to the House after it was compiled and arrange in a specific sequence.
52:6-7 - the knowledge that is within the Quran.

There are lots similiraties between Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Moses. Both were given Furqan, 
Prophet Muhammad - 02:185
Prophet Moses         - 02:53 & 21:48
the only difference is that GOD spoke to Prophet Moses direct - 04:164.

Dear brother Saleh,

Did you answered my simple question: How verse 52:2-3, 52:5 and 52:6 are connected to verse 52:4?

Regards,

Wazir

[Saleh]

Dear bro Wazir,

Amendment,
52:1 - Tur - It is the hallow ground where Prophet Moses was summoned by GOD - 25:22-30. This verses are connected to verses 95:2-3.
52:2-3 And the book written on parchment unfolded - These verses are connected to 53:13 - The second decent of Jibril and 75:17 - Compilation of the Quran and 25:32 - Arrange in a specific sequence.
52:4 By the House most frequented.
These verses tell us that the Quran was handed over to the Prophet Muhammad at the Tur juxtapose to the House after it was compiled and arrange in a specific sequence.
52:5-6 - the knowledge that is within the Quran.

My simple answer,
[2:125] We rendered the house a safe sanctuary. You may use station of Abraham as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those organization [who follow millat Abraham], as those who retreat [wal3kifina] and those who bow, prostrate."

wal3kifina - if you check the AlMawrid Arabic - English dictionary, the meaning is - devoted to, dedicated to,occupied with, busy with, working at.....

Thus, 52:2-3 is connected to 52:4 as such, 'wal3kifina' can be translated as working at the House, as the House was a Masjid, 'The Palace of GOD' established on earth and it can be utilised for many purposes such as sacrifice, sermons, marriage[nikah], most important work that concern divinity.

52:2-3 is connected to 52:5-6 - knowledge that is within the Quran and 52:5-6 is independent to 52:4.

Peace

Saleh

[chadiga]

DEAR brother Wazir
I must first mention that the analysis of the post quoted below is not mine. But still I'll answer to your questions:
you say:

Quote from analysis:
m
"The scholars give us the opinion that 'hateem' was initially part of the main building, and praying inside 'Hateem' is regarded as praying inside Kaa'ba itself." Moreover, in fig 2 the direction of prayer is mentioned.

To be correct, we can not take support on Muslim scholars when they cometo such a conclusion by means of   their historical sources  Your questions make sense only if I prefer this sources. I'm rather skeptical. In addition, your first three questions for me makes little sense. since in fact, i questions the association of Kaaba with Mecca  . So the first three questions are really immaterial, because they were made because of an assumption, not based on verifiable sources.

If we accept this premise, logical questions are:
1) Do you think person standing in a semi-circle of 'Hateem' pray facing another direction while keeping his back towards Kaa'ba?

2) While praying in vicinity of Kaa'ba who wants to pray in another direction?
3) If one is praying in another direction, then, why would he come near Kaa'ba in first place?
this three questions i answered above.

Other questions are:
1) Is it appropriate to use current map to understand the situation of 7th century or prior to that?

This question is legitimate, I would say that it can give us an indication. Surely we can find clues, but rely only on those maps seems to me incorrect.

2) Is there any evidence suggesting that people lived in Makkah used to pray in the direction of Jable Al Awz?
After examining all hypotheses related to the question it seems to me quite possible that the followers of Muhammad  prayed in a different direction from Mecca, it seems quite possible that this could be Jabal al Lawz.

3) Is there any evidence suggesting that people of Book ever prayed in the direction of Jable Al Awz?

It must be said that the theory that the Jabal al Lawz as"the Holy City of God" was established by Christians. There are also newer theories of represent scholars (Finkenstein)  who question Jerusalem as the place where the Temple of Solomon had been in . The situation around the Quibla from the people of the book is not clear.

4) What is significance of alignment line drawn you in pictures? There can be many places in the world aligning with Kaa'ba. So, what it proves?
This analysis was also  not mine, but anyway, it can give us an idea to study the Quibla changes more accurately. There is no proof, but perhaps another clue to solve the puzzle.
It seems to me that you ask  always for "prove". Counter question: where are your proofs? From my side it was always clear that this theory is firstly  an assumption. Far from being a complete theory.
I hope that I am now sufficiently answered your questions?and sorry for mistakes in the language.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Chadiga,

I can see that you are researching deeply on this topic of whether the Kaaba is in Makkah or not.
Since the era of Islam, on a practical day to day basis, Muslims have been in unison regarding the direction of prayer.

I feel that God has stressed the importance of the Qibla change and also the Masjid al Haram to the Muslims. Because of the emphasis on praying and is importance, could God have allowed it to be that Muslims place their centre of worship and Hajj in the incorrect location and direction.
In my opinion, something as important as this would surely not be overlooked by God.


As far as my knowledge on this, I do not think that in the early years of Islam, Muslims were praying in a different direction or that their Kaaba was elsewhere.

Is it not possible that like the preservation of the Holy Quran, the Muslims preserved the direction of prayer and location of the Kaaba.

Thanks

[Saleh]

Salaam Chadiga,

I can see that you are researching deeply on this topic of whether the Kaaba is in Makkah or not.
Since the era of Islam, on a practical day to day basis, Muslims have been in unison regarding the direction of prayer.

I feel that God has stressed the importance of the Qibla change and also the Masjid al Haram to the Muslims. Because of the emphasis on praying and is importance, could God have allowed it to be that Muslims place their centre of worship and Hajj in the incorrect location and direction.
In my opinion, something as important as this would surely not be overlooked by God.

As far as my knowledge on this, I do not think that in the early years of Islam, Muslims were praying in a different direction or that their Kaaba was elsewhere.

Is it not possible that like the preservation of the Holy Quran, the Muslims preserved the direction of prayer and location of the Kaaba.

Thanks

Salam Sis

What is comment on this link - www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

Rgds

[Truth Seeker]

Salam Sis

What is comment on this link - www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

Rgds

Salaam Saleh,

I checked out your link but it doesn't seem to work. Please can you post the link again.

Thanks.

[Saleh]

Salam Sis

What is comment on this link - www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

Rgds

Salaam Saleh,

I checked out your link but it doesn't seem to work. Please can you post the link again.

Thanks.

Salaam

It should be

http://free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

sorry

[Saleh]

Salam Sis

What is comment on this link - www.free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

Rgds

Salaam Saleh,

I checked out your link but it doesn't seem to work. Please can you post the link again.

Thanks.

Salaam

It should be

http://free-minds.org/where-was-mohammad

sorry

Sorry again, it should be http://free-minds.org/Kingdom-Israel and there there is a link to Where was Mohammad.

[chadiga]

salamu aleikum truth Seeker

sorry, when i was absent a wile, i had a crazy time and was sick. you say:

Salaam Chadiga,


I feel that God has stressed the importance of the Qibla change and also the Masjid al Haram to the Muslims. Because of the emphasis on praying and is importance, could God have allowed it to be that Muslims place their centre of worship and Hajj in the incorrect location and direction.
In my opinion, something as important as this would surely not be overlooked by God.


As far as my knowledge on this, I do not think that in the early years of Islam, Muslims were praying in a different direction or that their Kaaba was elsewhere.

Is it not possible that like the preservation of the Holy Quran, the Muslims preserved the direction of prayer and location of the Kaaba.

Thanks

Allah protects his word, not the false interpretation of it. Allah lets go astray, who wants to go astray and guides who will be rightly guided. For me, it is therefore quite possible that God allows it, because people do not use their AQL  enough  to seek the truth. They rely on their religious leaders and push so the responsibility of madness going on from those.
The location of the Kaaba is simply accepted so the word Kaab also, the black Stone as an integrated Point of focus, etc.
It is always difficult to imagine that a large mass  going wrong and this for a long time. The same problem also have the Christians, I can well remember the discussions with my parents when they were still talking with me, and her horror and disbelief that all Christians may be led astray, and God allows it.
For me, the site is open. I can not claim anything-with my current knowledge-i am simply keep my eyes open and continue to learn and seek knowledge. Only Allah expand our knowledge. A very interesting new aspect of the whole early history of Islam was presented in the FM forum by Pazuzu. Here the links
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603245.msg289455#msg289455[/url]][url=http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603245.msg289455#msg289455]http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603245.msg289455#msg289455[/url]
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603432.msg291976#msg291976

Peace be with you all in the forum and I love you all your sister chadiga

[Peaceful]

According to Gibson : http://searchformecca.com/Jerusalem.html

Neither Jerusalem nor Mecca were the First Qibla. In fact, it was Petra. The same location used by Arab pilgrims for centuries!!!

"It is very true the the Mosque of the Two Qiblas faced Jerusalem, but if one examines a map, it is obvious that Petra is located between Medina and Jerusalem. Thus this mosque faced BOTH Jerusalem and Petra. If you examine the Changing of the Qibla Timeline you will discover that there are a dozen early mosques that faced Petra, including the mosques in Medina and Jerusalem! These mosques alone are solid archeological proof that Petra was the focal point of the first qibla and not Jerusalem. Not a single mosque, outside of the Mosque of the Two Qiblas points to Jerusalem, but EVERY mosque built during the first hundred years of Islam pointed to Petra."

[Sardar Miyan]

Quranists say Qibla is not the direction of Muslims prayers but a center to concentrate on Allahs Commands.When it was not for the dirction of prayers why were TWO ( Qiblas) in Masjide Qiblatain as confirmed by Imam of our local Masjid having seen two Mimbers. a place from where Juma Qutba is delivered & also stand for offering Juma & regular five Prayers