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Offline 8pider

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Joining family or loved one in heaven
« on: September 29, 2014, 03:02:16 PM »
Quran says we get all our hearts desires....but what if ones desire is to be with loved ones ....and those loved ones don't make it to heaven?? I guess this is open to anyone not only Joseph. Thanks

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 10:41:42 AM »
As-salam alaykum 8pider,

Arguably, this is an 'earthy desire' which does not take into account the graphic and sudden disconnect that will happen on the Day of Judgement with earthly relationships. This is so vividly portrayed by the Quran, that it remains noteworthy that there will be no concern for others apart from oneself, once this earthly connection is removed.

Parents will no longer be parents, a mother will disown the product of her own womb and souls will become wholly independent of earthly connections.

Even the disbelievers in hell will admit that God has judged fairly and with justice (40:48)

I have discussed this in some detail in the following Q&A.

(Atheist) Need serious help!! - Life After Death
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1402.msg6457#new

However, those that have been granted paradise, there will always be the option to meet with those that were once known in earthly lives (52:21) of the righteous. However, it must be emphasised, that this will be a new world and our souls as part of a new creation.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 09:18:59 AM »
Quote

I have discussed this in some detail in the following Q&A.

(Atheist) Need serious help!! - Life After Death
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1402.msg6457#new

However, those that have been granted paradise, there will always be the option to meet with those that were once known in earthly lives (52:21) of the righteous. However, it must be emphasised, that this will be a new world and our souls as part of a new creation.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph

I found it helpful that people on the day of judgement will forget about each other an abandon all ties. This is true, but I realized what might happen after the day of judgement? It appears that Quran 52:25-28 states that ties will be realized in paradise and 52:21 makes it certain that people will remember you and aspects of your life in the afterlife. Would I be right in stating so?

The Words of God, in the Quran, tell us that the dwellers of Paradise will ask each other about their past lives.

“And they will approach one another, inquiring of each other. They will say, “Aforetime we were afraid with our families [of the punishment of God], but God has been gracious to us, and has saved us from the torment of the Fire.” (Quran 52:25-27)

(Quran 37:50-60) They will turn to one another, asking each other [about their past lives]. One of them will say: "I used to have a friend who would say to me: 'Are you one of those who say that it is true, that after we have died and are turned to dust and bones, we will face a Reckoning?'"And he will add: "Would you like to look [and see him]?"So he will look down and see him in the midst of the Blazing Fire and say: "By Allah, you almost ruined me! If it were not for the blessing of my Lord, I would surely be [now] among those who are given over [to suffering]. But then [Omy friends in Paradise,] is it [really] so that we are not to die [again,] beyond our previous death and we shall never [again] be made to suffer? Truly this is the Great Victory!"  (Surat as-Saffat, 50-60)

Perhaps there will be a disconnect in the day of judgement but not when in paradise? 

I found your argument that the disconnect must happen quite else the afterlife would be filled with mourning of those who are in hellfire compelling! Thanks for that. I hope to find a way to connect this to the verses above.

Further, I find it absolutely comforting that Allah states that he will remove rancor from their hearts, I also recall a verse that states that dialogue in paradise will not have any ill speech. Now I'm thinking, if there is no ill speech, does that mean there is no negative judgement?  And when there is no rancor, does that mean that people will not be judging others? That they will completely forget about everyone's faults in the life.

I also recall verses in the Quran that state that the dwellers of paradise will be comfortable and whatever they ask for, Allah will provide. Now when I think about it there are only 2 ways someone can be comfortable:

1.) Know that everyone completely forgot about it any my actions in this life
2.) Ask Allah to make everyone completely forget about my actions in this life

The only issue I have, is that how can I receive whatever I ask for in paradise? Perhaps some things are impossible to achieve. Let's say that I ask to have equal power as Allah--I don't think that is something that can be granted even though it is logically possible. So perhaps there are limits to what I can ask for and maybe asking Allah to make everyone forget about me would be too much?

I do apologize for expressing a level of skepticism, but I believe a good response to this may be helpful to the point you are making  :)

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2014, 10:12:15 AM »
Salaam,

I think that those in heaven will have their wishes granted because they will only ask for good and reasonable things. This is supported by the verses  you quoted. This new species will be peaceful with no rancour in their hearts, truly appreciative of what God has given them.

Their nature will not be as it was when they were earthly beings so they would never ask for innappropriate things like having the same power as God. Innately, their nature will change and the image I am getting maybe that they will be more angelic in character.

I suppose that by requesting that they or others be made to forget what they were like or what they did on Earth could make them less appreciative of God's grace and favour to them.

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 01:50:09 PM »
Salaam,

I think that those in heaven will have their wishes granted because they will only ask for good and reasonable things. This is supported by the verses  you quoted. This new species will be peaceful with no rancour in their hearts, truly appreciative of what God has given them.

Their nature will not be as it was when they were earthly beings so they would never ask for innappropriate things like having the same power as God. Innately, their nature will change and the image I am getting maybe that they will be more angelic in character.

I suppose that by requesting that they or others be made to forget what they were like or what they did on Earth could make them less appreciative of God's grace and favour to them.

I think you make a valid point that their nature is not going to be like that on Earth and we wouldn't ask any ridiculous questions.

I just wanted to state that I am the one who brother Joseph was responding to in the that Q&A. http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1402.msg6457#new

I've been struggling to find peace with myself and I pray that I do. The idea is that when I was an Atheist, my social anxiety was relieved because I believed "the universe will cease to exist and all will be forgotten". This meant that I shouldn't care about people's judgement of me because everyone will die and forget about me forever. When I became a Muslim, the social anxiety came back because everyone wasn't going to die and forget about me forever. They will be resurrected and remember me and my life again.

Brother Joseph has said that a disconnect will happen and everyone will forget about me in this life just like on Atheism. Do you agree? I really do hope what he has stated is correct, but unfortunately, I tend to question everything.

It seems like I cannot request that God makes everyone forget about my life on Earth..so that doesn't help me at all--although it may be true.

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2014, 02:34:30 PM »
Quote
I suppose that by requesting that they or others be made to forget what they were like or what they did on Earth could make them less appreciative of God's grace and favour to them.

Do you think that making everyone forget what they did on Earth would necessarily make them less appreciative of God's grace? Perhaps you can appreciate God's grace but at the same time reflect back on your choices, realize they were pathetic and not want anyone to remember them now that this life is over with? Or is that not appreciating God's grace of giving free will? And even then, can you say that your execution of free will were quite bad and that you want them forgotten? Or perhaps say to Allah that you appreciate that Allah has given you a life and guided you to pass the test of life, but you wish for Allah to make it forgotten of what you did? 

I really don't know. I found peace in knowing that I could ask God to let everyone forget about me. But, it seems your argument is quite good.

I wish that would be helpful to me.

But in spite of its helpfulness, I follow evidence where it leads. Atheism was helpful--extremely helpful. So much relief, so much carelessness of other people's judgement.  Islam hasn't been helpful to me at all in terms of my anxiety--not even in the slightest bit. It has actually led to a more severe form of it. Perhaps this is the struggle that Allah wanted for me or perhaps I am supposed to overcome this struggle by seeking refuge in Allah and finding peace in Islam...

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2014, 11:39:19 AM »
Quote
Joseph has said that a disconnect will happen and everyone will forget about me in this life just like on Atheism. Do you agree?

I agree that on the Day of Reckoning, all ties will be erased and everyone will be consumed by his own fate. Our deeds will be brought forth and we will not question or ever doubt the verdict that God passes as He is the ultimate judge. As far as my understanding from the Quran, we shall stand alone in front of God, with no onlookers.
Only He (and to a certain extent, his angels,) really knows every single minute of our lives and our innermost thoughts. However after the judgement comes to pass, I do believe that we will then recognize those people that we knew in our previous lives as is mentioned in the Quran:

13.23:
Gardens of perpetual bliss: they shall enter there, as well as the righteous among their fathers, their spouses, and their offspring: and angels shall enter unto them from every gate

I note from your posts that you have become very anxious of the concept that people will 'remember' you in the afterlife, but if we think of them in this current life, do they actually 'know' you? People are fickle and judgmental, never looking beyond what is in front of them. I would implore you to consider shifting your focus away from people and take solace in the fact that God is ever merciful and kind. He says that the rule of mercy is incumbent on Him. That alone Inshallah should give you strength and inner peace. He is the only one who has a right to judge you so should try to  forget about what us mere mortals think as our thoughts will not matter in the end.

Coming back to the fact that humans will become a new creation after the Day Of Judgement, with different physiologies and traits, having no rancour in their hearts. They may 'remember'you from their former lives,but the verses you mention seem to point to a general discussion where they are more reflective of their old lives and so grateful that God showed them mercy. It surely follows that if there is to be no more rancour, then why would they look down on you in a spiteful way? Surely that is not felicity?

Even though we will ask each other about our past lives as you have quoted with verses, the intimate details will always remain with God.

Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2014, 03:25:56 PM »
Quote
However after the judgement comes to pass, I do believe that we will then recognize those people that we knew in our previous lives as is mentioned in the Quran

Right, that is exactly what I am able to conclude and that is the cause of the anxiety. You do have a point though that the new creation won't have negative emotions/rancor. But how about just judgement that isn't followed by malice? Like thinking someone made bad choices in the previous life or thinking that you may be better than an individual because [insert reason here].

How about a case in which you have made a bad decision against Allah in which Allah chose to punish you for and then takes you to paradise? Wouldn't it be feasible to have everyone forget about such crimes against Allah for the sake of your felicity?

I would say the ultimate question would be, would Allah respond favorably to asking the question to ensure that everyone forgets you completely in this life despite having no rancor in their hearts? If so, I believe this can bring more peace than the previous points, but if not, then truth is truth. The issue is that although we would be a new type of creation it appears that we would still have social desires (to be with people) and eat/drink. So if we have these 2 desires, then perhaps we have other earthly desires and contentions (except those Allah removes)?

Maybe a solution to this is that there are 2 ways in which I can be happy in paradise

  • I would be careless of my previous life and not care about anyone's judgement (though the thought that they remember my misdeeds is rather painful, now)
  • I ask Allah to ensure that everyone forgets my actions in the previous life 

It appears that #2 seems to bring more peace than acknowledging #1. But I guess the question is, is #2 even possible?

Offline Nura

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Re: Joining family or loved one in heaven
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 04:25:26 AM »
My response is a year late but I hope it proves to be helpful! The contention remains about whether we can ask Allah to make people of heaven forget about other people's actions or not! From the earthly relationship perspective it would make sense to ask to make others forget about our sins against them or against Allah because we feel ashamed to have committed them or that we are afraid of what other people are thinking about us and judging us!  But in the afterlife our psychological  makeup will also be different! In our earthly life our current psychological makeup is what allows us to feel envy and judge others! But this is made possible because of the duality in creation that brother Joseph recently talked about in one of his FB posts! Duality of emotions is also there so that the positive emotions like love, happiness etc can be felt And appreciated! When we feel negative emotions it is because our hearts can feel rancour! But if that is taken away judging others is not going to be a possibility anyway because it is an unkind thing to do and will not really serve any purpose! The judgement by Allah will have already happened and our ranking in the afterlife will be revealed which will reflect our position with Allah! The purpose of this earthly life is to see who among us toils and achieves nearness to Allah! It is all about making our relationships stronger with Allah and gaining a high rank in His eyes. We are also informed in the Quran that Satan puts seeds of enmity among us, this is only possible because we can have rancour now in our hearts and this possibility of feeling negative emotion fulfils a purpose on earth, that of being a test for other fellow people and committing crimes against them! Life in heaven will be different as many have already said but asking Allah to make others forget about our crimes will also make others question our position in the hereafter . We will not understand why someone is at a higher ranking than us, no human is sinless and every person will repent and will have been forgiven by Allah in heaven but there will still be a ranking! That is the fair thing because we have been informed that this life is given as an opportunity to prove our worth and forgetting what we did on earth and making other people forget what we did will only create confusion regarding judgement among created souls! It doesn't seem like a possibility! But no one will look down upon anyone, such an action or emotion will serve no purpose in afterlife! Plus a murderer or rapist who will find himself in hell will also have to remember why he is there and others will also have to know what happened to people who did not act as Allah asked! People of heaven will know about people of hell and vice versa but erasing the memory of other people's action will rob us of our understanding and appreciation of the full scope of Allah's judgement!  Everybody will get to know the truth on judgement day and that is Allah's promise and falsehood will perish but all this will have no meaning if people's memory will be removed or tampered with! On the contrary we will remember minute details about things and will be informed about everything we have done and Allah knows best!
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien