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Offline IjazAhmad

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Qur'an + Torah
« on: December 01, 2014, 03:44:19 PM »
Salamun alaika br. Joseph and all!

A Mumin is someone who Believes in God, his angels, Messengers, scriptures and the J-day.

Many Muslims differ about the Torah, whether it is corrupted or not. Can we/I derive guidance, and follow the Torah?

But when there came unto them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Why is he not given the like of what was given unto Moses? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given unto Moses of old? They say: Two magics that support each other; and they say: Lo! in both we are disbelievers. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful. (28:48-49).


Offline good logic

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 10:18:28 PM »
Greetings IjazAhmad.

It is interesting to note that Qoran says the following:

[Qoran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you.....
 


[Qoran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.

[Qoran 10:37] This Qoran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.


Qoran confirms "Torah", following Qoran is following Torah and all the past messages:

[Qoran 39:28] An Arabic Qoran, without any ambiguity, that they may be righteous.

[Qoran 4:82] Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.*

Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran. Also:

[Qoran 54:17] We made the Qoran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

If we have Qoran, we have Torah and all the past messages!

We need to take the words of Qoran seriously and not be like those who received Torah and "threw GOD s words behind their back".

Hopefully the messenger will not say about us:

[Qoran 25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Qoran."

Qoran ,if we have come across it, is our torah, Injeel...and all other scriptures.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 10:42:25 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic .... >>

Qoran confirms "Torah", following Qoran is following Torah and all the past messages:

..are you saying that the Quran has all the Torah laws and all the details that the Torah had in the Quran? Also what do you mean by the 'original Torah'???..... i thought that the Quran spoke about the Torah that was there at the time of the prophet.....what torah were the Jewish folk reading? the original one or a corrupt one?

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 06:11:05 AM »
Dear brother IjazAhmad,

As-salamu alaykum

The Quran implicitly ratifies the integrity of the previous scriptures. The verses you have shared clearly indicate that guidance is present in the previous scriptures. There is no ambiguity within those verses. Please see posts below [1] & [2] where I have cited the very same verses you have done underscoring these sentiments.

Dear Duster - You are absolutely correct. There is absolutely no warrant for the assertion or implication that the scriptures that the People of the Book were reading during Prophet Muhammad's ministry were wholly corrupt or were 'lost'. In fact, the Quran makes it absolutely clear that it supports the integrity of the Scriptures in multifaceted ways and often refers to it. However, for believers, the Quran remains the final criterion to judge.


005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

005.047
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed in it. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are those who rebel (Arabic: Fasiquna)."

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

We even have complete canonised Bibles that predate the Quran. The Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran), is considered one of the best texts in Greek of the New Testament along with the manuscript of the Codex Vaticanus. Alexandrian manuscripts are well known to scholars as representing some of the 'best' manuscripts.

Notwithstanding that certain scriptures were given more emphasis in different congregations and certain traditions were also prevalent, it is not too difficult to determine what kind of scriptures in general would be read by the Jews and Christians during the prophetic ministry as a general canon form was already in situ amongst the People of the Book.

I have discussed this further in articles reference [3] and post reference [4] below.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph



REFERENCES:

[1] Studying the Bible as Another Source for Guidance
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396647927139007?stream_ref=10
[2] The Two Guides  - The Quran and the Bible     
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481
[3] 'Between his Hands' or 'Before It' (Ma Bayna Yadayhi)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[4] Lambasting the Bible
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146
[5] Beautiful Psalms
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/349764368445340
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline IjazAhmad

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 05:29:46 PM »
Thank you everyone for the answers - thank you brother joseph for a detailed answer!  :)

Wa'salaam!

Offline Duster

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 05:43:58 PM »
Shalom / peace brother joseph >> Thank you so much for your response, verses and the additional links...it makes perfect sense...thank you.

Offline good logic

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 09:02:49 PM »
Greetings Duster.

No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah. I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:

[Qoran 14:1] A.L.R. A scripture that we revealed to you, in order to lead the people out of darkness into the light - in accordance with the will of their Lord - to the path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy.

[Qoran 5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. ....

Of course Qoran tells us that God's scriptures, preached by all of His messengers, are all valid source of guidance. Messengers of God are sent as mercy for the sole duty of directing us to the source of guidance, GOD s scripture. However Qoran being the latest one is enough for salvation:

[Qoran 46:12] Before this, the book of Moses provided guidance and mercy. This too is a scripture that confirms, in Arabic, to warn those who transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.

[Qoran 5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[Qoran 3:3] He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel
 [Qoran 3:4] before that, to guide the people, and He sent down the statute book. Those who disbelieve in God's revelations incur severe retribution. God is Almighty, Avenger.


Yes indeed everything we need is in Qoran:

[Qoran 17:9] This Qoran guides to the best path, and brings good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have deserved a great recompense.

[Qoran 27:76] This Qoran settles many issues for the Children of Israel; issues that they are still disputing.
 [Qoran 27:77] And most assuredly, it is a guide and mercy for the believers.

 By all means read,study the bible as well. There is some excellent advice/guidance/history...But Qoran warns those rejecting its message ,once they are aware/familiar...

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 09:25:23 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic ..so what did you mean when you said the following>>>?

Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran. Also:

What do you mean by the 'Original Torah'??

Offline good logic

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 09:33:17 PM »
Greetings Duster.

What I mean by "original " is Torah as first written.
 For example GOD said Moses was given the" tablets" Written for him, where are they now?

I know there are surviving bits of many old scriptures here and there, but mainly we have translated "bibles"and chosen fragments put together. Most of the bibles are translated texts.

I will also  call translated Qoran, if it does not contain the  "original "arabic , as not original.

Hope that clarifies what I meant.

Of course if one was to produce the Torah, Injeel or any other old scripture in its original language intact, then I will stand corrected.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2014, 09:47:31 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic ....

>>>I am even more confused with your statement now...

See here you say>>>>

Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran.

Which means, that the Torah that is not 'original' will not agree with the Quran. Its simple deduction......>>>>right???

e.g. original torah = agree with the Quran
not original torah = will not agree with the Quran

...Then in  the next post you seem to contradict yourself by saying >>>>>

Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.

So if today's torah is not different from the past Torah, then why are you saying>>>>>

there are surviving bits of many old scriptures here and there,

you see how confusing your posts are???

Now ....when the Quran was telling jews and christians to go back to their books, why would it be telling them to go back to the original Torah if they did not have them? What torah was the Quran referring to when it asked them to go back to their books and why would it say that if they only had 'surviving bits' here and there????

Offline good logic

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2014, 08:16:16 PM »
Greetings Duster.
Sorry brother for "confusing "you.

My statement is simple, Torah that GOD sent originally will contain the same message today as it did then. However I have not seen it. Qoran tells me about it. Qoran confirms it existed. Since both Torah and Qoran are from GOD, then they "agree" the main message.

Please provide me with the "Torah" that Qoran is speaking about. Where is it? That is why I said "surviving bits " . I have not come across all of it?

When I read the bible I recognise some "bits" of Torah that Qoran mentions, that is what I mean by "bits here and there". But the bible is not the Torah.

Where can I find,the Torah that Qoran was asking them to go back to .at this age?I have not come across it? I will gladly correct my view, if found/exists somewhere.

Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2014, 08:39:46 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic ...>>

I have to follow up, because your response is not completely making sense to me .......>>>>

What do you mean by:

Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.

>>>>Is today's Torah different from the past Torah or not???? as you seem to suggesting in the above response that it is not.....pls can you just answer this one question for me now pls...thanks>>


Offline Seraphina

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2014, 09:09:06 PM »
Brother Good logic, selam aleikoum, sorry if I'm interfering,
From what I see, you expect every previous scripture of God to agree 100% with the Quran. Well, while they may agree in many points (since their source is the same), they can't agree 100%. You know why?
Because the previous scriptures (including Torah) were meant for a certain time and place, they were temporary and befitting the circumstances for the time they were sent, they weren't meant to be universal laws for all time. The main laws were the same, it's just the way they applied were adjusted by God in accordance with prevalent circumstances and needs. But the Quran was meant to be a universal law for all times and circumstances. So, while still being the same law, the way of their appliance was adjusted so it could fit perfectly with all the times to come. For example, the fasting still remained prescribed for us "just like it was to those before us", but the adjustment was that the relations with our spouse are allowed during the night (because God with infinite knowledge knew that there will come a time such as ours that evil temptations will be everywhere around, so it would be terribly hard to us). Or another example: the adultery is still forbidden, as a great sin that it is, but the death penalty was revoked, it got substituted with lashes and never being allowed to marry other than adulterer or polytheist, God with infinite knowledge knew that there will come a time when this horrible way of punishment (stoning to death) will be unfitting with people's way of living and judging.
That's what the jews of the time of Prophet couldn't understand, that's why they were constantly pointing that since there are differences in laws of Quran and Torah, Quran can't be from the same God of the Torah. That's why God answered to them "We never substitute a verse except that it is a better one".
It's like us humans when we make an amendment to an existing law of constitution - the law is still prevalent, just with some adjustments to fit with a sudden need that a society might be facing.
God bless you all, I hope I helped a bit :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2014, 09:41:21 PM »
Dear all,

Further to the wise comments made by sister Seraphina, I would also like to present some additional elucidatory comments which may assist with this discussion, God willing.

From a Quranic perspective, it does not matter whether or not we have the original tablets consisting of the instructions (maw'izah) and complete explanations (tafsilan'li'kulli shayin) given to Prophet Moses (7:145) 

It also does not matter whether we physically possess the original Scriptures taken down or possibly copied verbatim by the contemporaries of Prophets Moses and Aaron.

What matters most from a Quranic perspective at the time of revelation is whether or not the instructions / admonition / exhortation (maw'izah) that the Children of Israel were given (5:46; 7:154) as 'guidance' (huda) was accessible / present with the Jews at the time of the prophetic ministry, regardless of form. In other words, was this guidance lost or not at the time of the Quran's revelation?

The answer from a Quran's perspective appears to be not. In other words, they had the guidance and exhortation with them or at least an ability to discern. That is why the Quran instructed the Children of Israel to go back to their Scriptures (5:43; 5:68).

It would be pointless for the Quran to instruct the Children of Israel to go back and judge from their Torah, if they only had parts, sparse or little or no discernible instructions from the Torah given to Prophet Moses.

Furthermore as I have shared in my previous post and accompanying articles, the prophet undoubtedly came face to face with what the Children of Israel were reading from the scriptures (note the word 'liqa' from the verb 'laqiya' in verse 32:23 which means ‘encounter’ or ‘face to face meet’).

032:023
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it / coming face to face with it /  meeting it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

Also the Torah is but one book amongst other books that were given to the prophets after Prophet Moses and further inspired writings. The Tanakh is a canon of the Hebrew Bible consisting of many Books of which the Torah (proper) is a part. Notwithstanding the fact that at times aspects of the Scriptures may have been concealed (akhfa - 5:15), The Children of Israel arguably had access to all these Scriptures with them or at least the main guidance contained originally within them ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136).

As I have already shared with citation of evidential support, we know what the canon Scriptures of the Children of Israel would have looked like in the 7th century.

Therefore, it is thus futile to demand or imply the importance of acquiring ‘original scriptures’, at least from the perspective of the Quran’s revelation which acted as a guard (muhaymin - 5:48) and criterion (furqan).

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Qur'an + Torah
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2014, 09:51:26 PM »
Thank you brother Joseph, may God bless you :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."