Qur'an + Torah

[Duster]

Shalom / peace brother Joseph>>>>> thank you again for your detailed clarification...I do agree with your position and what Seraphina is saying ....My confusion really is with what goodlogic is stating as I am not sure whether according to him today's torah is different from the past torah..... I feel i am getting mixed messages from him so i look to see what response i get....

Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.

[good logic]

Greetings Duster.

Is today s Torah the same as the original  Torah?

I do not have the original Torah , nor do I know what exactly what makes up today s Torah from the texts/bible.

Who can tell you what today s Torah is? Is it one book or a collection of few books? Some do not even agree on this?

We have the bible today as well as other texts that could include Torah.

Why does GOD renew the scripture? Do we have the newest scripture intact and original? This is the most important question

The answer to this last question is-Yes we have Qoran intact!

So my answer to your question is we have Qoran and on its own it is sufficient for salvation.

If you find out what is Torah today and we also find the original Torah ,then we can answer that question. But it will be futile ,because we have all we need with Qoran.

Hope that makes sense.
Thank you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace goodlogic .. sorry...but i feel you have just repeated what you said before but not answering the specific question.....you made a claim so it is only right that you defend it .....>>>>

On one side...you repeat by saying that we don't have the original Torah but then why then did you say what you said below? Did you make a mistake?? .....

Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah.

>>>because the above comment from you means today's torah is the same as the past torah. You said that and also you are saying it is not.....See the confusion? >>>

[good logic]

Greetings Duster.

Here is what I said:

No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah. I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:


Here is what I should have said to explain it further:
]No,I am not saying Qoran has the details or laws of the Torah . Neither am I saying that today s Torah( If it can be found) is different from the past Torah( If that could also be found to make the comparison). I am saying Qoran by itself is sufficient:

Since we have Qoran today, it all becomes irrelevant.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Seraphina]

Brother Good logic, I would suggest you to read brother Joseph's answers at this post. You seem to be missing some points regarding what Quran says about Torah and other past scriptures. To be honest, Duster is not the only one who is sensing you contradict yourself in your answers, I have difficulties understanding you as well, because in your post you say something, then in other post you say something else, and then you say something like 'I didn't mean it that way'. I would like you answer a question for me, if I'm not asking too much:
If Torah of today is the same Torah of 1400 years ago, and this Torah is corrupted as you claim, then how can God ask the jews to get back to their Torah? Doesn't God know that the Torah they have is corrupted?
As for ilustration: It's like I knew someone stole your car and it's never been found, and yet I still tell you "why you walk on foot when you have your car? get inside of it and start driving". If this type of contradiction done by me (a human being) wouldn't make any sense, how can it make sense from God, who's clear on important matters such as these?
Selam, God bless you

[good logic]

Greetings Seraphina.

I read brother Joseph s posts. I am none the wiser where the Torah is.

You are asking the following:

If Torah of today is the same Torah of 1400 years ago, and this Torah is corrupted as you claim, then how can God ask the jews to get back to their Torah? Doesn't God know that the Torah they have is corrupted?

Please show me where I said it is corrupted? I said I do not know where it is today. How could  I have claimed it is corrupted?

Please show me where I can find the Torah today? Is it in the bible? Which books of the bible?

Thank you sister.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Good Logic,

As-salamu alaykum

You shared:

“I read brother Joseph s posts. I am none the wiser where the Torah is.”

With respect, if you have not been able to deduce from my posts hitherto the following simple points, then with respect again, I am saddened and disappointed and retain concerns as to what posts you have been reading and how you have interpreted them.

• God asked the Children of Israel to judge by their books. That means that the laws to judge by, were present with them at the time of the prophet's ministry in the Scriptures they were reading.
• We know in the main what the canon Old Testament would have looked like at the time of Prophet Muhammad as we have extant copies of the canon from before the Quran was revealed. I gave examples of the Codex Sinaiticus, the earliest complete Christian Bible circa 350 CE (Approximately 250 years before the revelation of the Quran). This includes Books from the Old Testament (in Greek supporting / establishing the original text of the Septuagint) and the complete New Testament. We also have access to the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide further support and knowledge as to what the Old Testament canon would have looked like before the Prophetic ministry.
• Notwithstanding emphasis on certain Scriptures, traditions and beliefs, The Arab Jewish communities would have arguably not have completely re-invented their own Torah or Scriptures. There would have been a largely agreed canon which would not have been drastically different from the canons we have access to today and those that preceded them. Whatever the canon, the Torah laws must have been present, otherwise there would be no point in God referring them back to what was with them of the Scriptures.
• The Torah (or Pentateuch) is but one part of the Tanakh which is a canon of Scriptures which also includes inspired writings from the prophets after Prophet Moses. ("...and what was given to the prophets from their Lord..." - 2:136). The Tanakh also includes the Psalms (the Zabur given to David - 4:163; 17:55; 35:25). The Torah most specifically refers to the first five books of the Tanakh. There is no evidence that these laws that the Quran referred to cannot be found in these Books. In fact, there are many mitzvot (commandments) that can be found in the Torah even today, as they could in the Torah at the time of Prophet Muhammad. I would kindly and politely suggest that you conduct your own research.

As I have said to you before:

"There are many readers of this forum that come to seek answers and not to become further confused amongst a midst of unevidenced voices and opinions. Increasingly, I will be looking forward to curtail potentially endless debates on this forum. I have grown to become tired of tedious discussions and increasingly aware that forums can quickly become a minefield of dumped thoughts which become increasingly difficult to decipher with useful information as time goes on. Thus moving forward, I will attempt to avoid this as best I can to continue to maintain a high level of discussion and information base on this forum, God willing." [1]

Going forward, I would kindly request that no further responses are made on this thread as the original poster (IjazAhmad) has already been satisfied with the responses provided to him in reply #4 and I am also content that suitable responses have been provided to him.

I would like to thank both Duster and Seraphina for their thoughtful comments in this thread. This is really appreciated.

Regards,
Joseph



REFERENCE:

[1] How does the Quranic law of retribution work ?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1446.msg6637#msg6637

[Seraphina]

Greetings Good logic,
Here are some of your quotes that I was talking about:
"Yes ,if you can find the "Original Torah" you would find that it agrees with Qoran." So the original Torah is lost (since you say'if you can find it'), and the Torah we have is corrupted, since it doesn't agree with Quran at some aspects. You don't say it directly, but that's what you imply by saying this phrase. Furthermore, simply by using the term "the original Torah", you are showing us that you believe there are two Torahs: one original and one false. If anyone can understand these sayings of yours in a different manner, then please elucidate me, because that's the only meaning I get from thse words of yours.
Next, to my surprise, you say: "Neither am I saying that today s Torah is different from the past Torah." This is where you lost me: Is today's Torah different from past Torah or not?
"Please provide me with the "Torah" that Qoran is speaking about. Where is it?" Here you go again with the ''one original and one false Torah'' again. The Quran answers this question, for example, in 5:43: "But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them?  therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith." Does this ring a bell?
"But the bible is not the Torah." Absolutely correct! The Bible contains nearly 66 books, and the Torah is made up of only 5 of them: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.
Anyways, I don't want to go back to things already mentioned in my posts or Duster's posts, and regarding the changes between Torah and Quran, I talked about it in a previous post.
I'm trying to understand you, but you're constantly changing your words, so you end up confusing us. If I'd be the only one confused, I'd assume it's my fault, but since I'm not the only one experiencing it, it is your way of expression or understanding that's at fault.
Selam, God bless you too

[Joseph Islam]

Thank you sister Seraphina for your response. I have now locked the topic as I feel the matter has been exhausted. Thank you so much for your contributions