Before or after resurrection 22:2 - Further Discussions

[good logic]

This topic has been split from original thread found below:

Before or after resurrection 22:2
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1468

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Peace Hamzeh.

While I agree with the timeline,2,3,4,5 and 6 of brother Joseph s post, I believe the prophecy described in verse [54:1] was fulfilled on 21 July 1969 at 17: 54: 1 (Universal Time) (1: 54: 1 EDT) when the lunar module left the moon carrying 21  kilograms of lunar rocks .

{54:2} comes after , that has also been fulfilled.

The next prophecy will be the "smoke",then, 2, Gog and Magog,3,4,5,and 6 as brother Joseph stated.
 
GOD bless you .
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Br. Good Logic

Thanks for your reply

I don't think Joseph is referring to the smoke, Gog and Magog and so on as prophecies that will happen before the Hour but maybe coincides, simultaneously with the Hour.

One good important point that I think us believers should keep in mind is that the Hour or the time God decides to annihilate the world is unexpected.  It can happen at any moment, time without any traces of evidences that happened or no land marks. To think that the world will not end until so and so happens goes against some verses of the Quran.

A good article I found to explain and remind believers of believing that the hour is to be treated as 'imminent is below by Joseph Islam and also these verses he stated in his last post on this thread (7:187; 53:57-58; 12:107; 43:66; 33:63; 42:17)

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/494897590647373

Also see the responses made at the button of that site

Peace

[Imran Faruqui]

Here is an alternate timeline to consider:

1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.
2. Gog and Magog are released.
3. The moon is split in two.
4. The visible smoke comes forth.
Note: points 2, 3, 4; serve as a warning to the last generation as a final opportunity to believe in the veracity of the Qur’an.
5. At some point after the above, at a time known only to God, the Hour arrives suddenly, marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake. At this time, children’s hair turns ashen grey, pregnant women drop their load, nursing mothers forget their nurslings, the beasts are gathered, etc.
6. The trumpet sounds the first time, and all people of the last generation who haven’t yet died from the Overwhelming Earthquake fall down and die.
7. The trumpet sounds a second time; and everyone since the time of Adam to the last generation is Resurrected.
8. The Day of Judgment continues on, during which time mankind is sorted into three classes, the Record of Deeds of each person is laid open, Heaven and Hell are brought near, and people enter the gates to their final home, according to the judgment rendered by God.

[good logic]

Peace Hamzeh.

While I agree that the "hour" will come unexpectedly to the disbelievers,transgressors,..Munafiqeen,.doubters...Those who oppose GOD. It will not surprise the believers.

Have you noticed these kind of people are mentioned in the verses just before or just after[7:187.53:57,12:107,43:66,33:63]

Those who are certain will prepare for it and expect it. They will also know that GOD s promise will come . The other prophesies will be fulfilled.
42:17
God is the One who sent down the scripture, to deliver the truth and the law. For all that you know, the Hour (Day of Judgment) may be very close.
اللَّهُ الَّذى أَنزَلَ الكِتٰبَ بِالحَقِّ وَالميزانَ وَما يُدريكَ لَعَلَّ السّاعَةَ قَريبٌ
42:18
Challenging it are those who do not believe in it. As for those who believe, they are concerned about it, and they know that it is the truth. Absolutely, those who deny the Hour have gone far astray.
يَستَعجِلُ بِهَا الَّذينَ لا يُؤمِنونَ بِها وَالَّذينَ ءامَنوا مُشفِقونَ مِنها وَيَعلَمونَ أَنَّهَا الحَقُّ أَلا إِنَّ الَّذينَ يُمارونَ فِى السّاعَةِ لَفى ضَلٰلٍ بَعيدٍ


The believers are mindful of the day of judgement .They know for sure it is coming. So it is no surprise to them,when it comes.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Imran Faruqui,

As-salamu alaykum

You assert [bold emphasis mine]:

Here is an alternate timeline to consider:

1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.
2. Gog and Magog are released.
3. The moon is split in two.
4. The visible smoke comes forth.
Note: points 2, 3, 4; serve as a warning to the last generation as a final opportunity to believe in the veracity of the Qur’an.
5. At some point after the above, at a time known only to God, the Hour arrives suddenly, marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake. At this time, children’s hair turns ashen grey, pregnant women drop their load, nursing mothers forget their nurslings, the beasts are gathered, etc.
6. The trumpet sounds the first time, and all people of the last generation who haven’t yet died from the Overwhelming Earthquake fall down and die.
7. The trumpet sounds a second time; and everyone since the time of Adam to the last generation is Resurrected.
8. The Day of Judgment continues on, during which time mankind is sorted into three classes, the Record of Deeds of each person is laid open, Heaven and Hell are brought near, and people enter the gates to their final home, according to the judgment rendered by God.

(1) THE ASSERTION: THE DAY OF JUDGMENT OCCURRING UNAWARE AND BEFORE THE FINAL HOUR

From a Quran's perspective, I simply cannot comprehend or accept your assertion that the Day of Judgement (Yawm al-din) will occur before the final hour arrives. Further still, your assertion that mankind will enter the Day of Judgment unaware is completely contradicted by the Quran.

The Quran is absolutely clear, that Yawm al-din (The Day of Judgement) is the period in which individuals will be judged and those whose scales are light, will be punished (82:15) and this will all happen in full knowledge of mankind.

037.020
"They will say, "Ah! Woe to us! This is the Day of Judgment!" (Yawm al-din)

- Please note, mankind is completely aware of The Day of Judgment!

082.017
"And what will explain to you what the Day of Judgment is (Yawm al-din)?"
 
082.018
"Again (Then), what will explain to you what the Day of Judgment is (Yawm al-din)?"

082.019
"(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) anything for another: For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) with God."

As shown above, your assertions are wholly rebuked by the explicit text of the Quran and I simply cannot emphasise this point enough. From a Quran's perspective, The Day of Judgment is clearly a reference to a period in which no soul will have power to help anyone. It is the period when everyone is judged. Therefore it follows, this period cannot precede the final 'hour' (Sa’ah).



(2) THE ASSERTION: EXPECTING CERTAIN LANDMARK EVENTS TO OCCUR BEFORE THE FINAL HOUR CAN ARRIVE

There is no unequivocal proof from the Quran that the events of the smoke, or the unleashing of Gog and Magog will precede the hour.

In all the contentions I have provided to your assertions hitherto, you have also not provided any proof as to how to 'square the circle' of on one hand, believing in the imminent / sudden / unexpected (baghtah - 7:187) onset of the hour (a well-established Quranic doctrine supported by numerous verses) and on the other hand, believing in 'prophecies' or 'landmark moments' to be required to transpire first before the hour can even arrive. (Bar the splitting of the moon 54:1 marking the onset of the hour). In my humble opinion, this makes a mockery of the belief in the 'imminent / unexpected / sudden' nature of the final hour which one should expect to arrive unexpectedly.

007.187 (part)
"They ask you about the Hour  - when will be its appointed time? Say: "The knowledge of it is only with my Lord: None but He can reveal its time. It lays heavily (its burdens) in the heavens and the earth. It will not come to you but all of a sudden (baghtah)..."


From my humble perspective, one simply cannot, by any stretch of logic, be expected to believe in the imminent / sudden / unexpected (baghtah) arrival of a major event (with no exceptions given in those verses) and at the same time, be expected to have to wait for certain landmark moments to occur first, before the major event arrives. You simply cannot have both and I assert with respect that no amount of 'attempted' clever interpolations, or lean on dubious interpretive licence by anyone, can cogently argue otherwise.

You assert:

5. At some point after the above, at a time known only to God, the Hour arrives suddenly,

I find your attempt to satisfy the 'sudden' part by implying that the hour will arrive suddenly, but only after x and y have occurred not persuasive at all. With respect, I find that the provisos are only provided by your interpolations and are not supported by the explicit text of the Quran.

The Quran simply states to the believers to expect the Hour to arrive suddenly (baghtah). Suddenly means unexpectedly, i.e. without warning. This is what the contemporaries of Prophet Muhammad 1400 years ago were were expected to do and this is what believers are expected to do today.

As you may appreciate, attempting to provide prophecies of all sorts as to when judgment day will arrive is not something that afflicts Muslim theologians / preachers, but is well observed as an occurrence in other religions too. This is nothing new.

The Quran makes it simple. Live your life expecting death and / or the final hour at any time. Believers need not complicate matters beyond what is simply stated.

Regards,
Joseph

[Imran Faruqui]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be with you.

I think the first point to clarify is what is meant by the Day of Judgment (DOJ). I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour. There is a major difference between the two. ‘Occur’ suggests a completion of an event; i.e. something will begin, transpire, and end. However, I am positing, based on clear Qur’anic evidence, that the DOJ is a ‘Divine Epoch’ – a segment of events within God’s grand design, characterized by specific, distinguishing features. Keep in mind that a Divine Epoch, or Day, by God’s standard is a great length of time when measured in human terms:

22:47 "They will challenge you to hasten the punishment. God will not fail in His promise – a Day with your Lord is like a thousand years by your reckoning." (see also 32:5)

70:1-4 "A man (mockingly) demanded the punishment. It will fall on the disbelievers – none can deflect it – from God, the Lord of the Ways of Ascent, by which the angels and the Spirit ascend to Him, on a Day whose length is fifty thousand years."

As noted in the verses above, since the Qur’an compares God’s Day, or Divine Epoch, to a thousand or even fifty thousand human years, the message is not that it is an exact equivalent; only that a Day is a very long period of time.

With the above noted, the next point of clarification is the clear Qur’anic distinction between the DOJ and the Hour. The DOJ, in all its various forms (Day of Judgment, Day of Resurrection, Day of Decision, the Day, etc.) is likely referenced over a 100 times in the Qur’an. And yet, never, not even once, does the Qur’an say the DOJ will arrive ‘suddenly.’ This is highly peculiar and requires some contemplation. The Hour, on the other hand, is often declared as arriving suddenly. Here are just a few verses which exclaim the sudden arrival of the Hour (there are many others):

12:107 "Are they so sure that an overwhelming punishment from God will not fall on them, or that the Last Hour will not come upon them suddenly when they least expect it?"

22:55 "The disbelievers will remain in doubt about it until the Hour suddenly overpowers them or until torment descends on them on a Day devoid of all hope."

43:66 "What are they waiting for but the Hour, which will come upon them suddenly and take them unawares?"

This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.

Now, as the DOJ is a very long period when measured by human standards, there are many events that will therefore transpire during the DOJ. One of these events is the Final Hour, marked by the sudden arrival of the Last Earthquake. As an analogy, think of the ‘Day’ and the ‘Hour’ very much like a clock in human terms. An hour is just a portion of a full 24hour day. So, at some point after the DOJ commences, the Hour arrives, but the DOJ had already started beforehand. The Hour, consequently, is a subset of time, or perhaps more appropriately, a subset of events, within the overall DOJ (I’m not suggesting the Hour is 1/24th of the length of the DOJ, only that it is a subset).

Thus, when you reference verses 37:02, 82:017-19, and indeed countless others of this ilk, there is no contradiction whatsoever because all these events do occur with the Divine Epoch known as the DOJ. Verse 37:02 does not state, for example, “…woe to us! This is the beginning of the Day of Judgment,” only that “…this is the Day of Judgment,” which is correct. However, the DOJ had in fact begun earlier. Once again, referring back to the analogy of a clock in human terms, if the event of Resurrection took place at12noon, and one uttered, “…this is the Day of Judgment,” the statement is true, even though the day had begun 12 hours earlier in the clock.

Moving on, I will now address your objections against key landmark events which must transpire prior to the arrival of the Final Hour. Here, I want to highlight a key established Qur’anic practice: it is, without exception, the Qur’anic precedence that whenever God ordains destruction on a doomed community, clear signs are first sent down as manifest warnings so that people may take heed. This established practice – of sending clear CONTEMPORANEOUS signs as warnings prior to the release of divinely decreed cataclysms – is a recurrent and defining hallmark of the Qur’anic narrative: to Pharaoh (17:101, 43:47-48); to the people of Ad (11:59); to the people of Thamud (7:73); to the people of Midian (7:85), etc.

There is no single example in the Qur’an when a community was destroyed by an ordained, supernatural act of God – whether it be a volcanic eruption, a giant tidal wave, a violent hurricane, or an earthquake – except that it was preceded by clear warning signs which served as (i) ample proof of the truth of God’s Word; (ii) harbingers of their destruction; and (iii) transpired and/or made manifest CONTEMPORANEOUS to the generation ordained for destruction. And in each and every case, these calamitous events, ultimately, all came suddenly.

So I pose the question: how is it possible that God’s established practices (which cannot be violated) as they relate to the divinely decreed destruction of a community, be upheld for each and every community destroyed in the past, but not upheld for the last generation destined to witness the final, great apocalypse of the Hour? And the answer can only be that God’s established practices are obliged to be upheld: that is the entire reason why eschatological prophecies that portend the Great Earthquake are included in the Qur’an; to serve as warning signs of the imminent arrival of the Final Hour; so they can be decoded and thus serve as confirmation of God’s Word; so that the last generation will have absolutely no excuse for disbelief when they are inevitably presented in front of their Lord. That was God’s practice with bygone generations ordained for destruction. And you will find no change in God’s established practices.

Now, let us look closely at the Qur’anic verses depicting a couple of key landmark events.

1. In reference to the war of Gog and Magog, verse 18:99 states, “On that Day, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…” Clearly, the ‘Day’ referred to here is the DOJ. Hence, the war of Gog and Magog will commence on the DOJ, at some point during the 24hour clock, and the war will be a warning and clear sign of the imminent arrival of the Hour, which is also part of the DOJ.

2. In regards to the prophecy of the clouds of visible smoke, the smoke will appear on the DOJ (44:10), and then disappear (44:15), and only later will the Hour arrive (44:16). By necessity, this obligates that the smoke is a warning and harbinger of the imminent Hour because the smoke disappears in advance of the Hour’s arrival:

44:10 "Watch out for the Day when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see. 11It will envelop the people. They will cry, ‘This is a terrible torment! 12Lord relieve us from this torment! We believe!’ 13How will this (sudden) faith benefit them? When a messenger came to warn them plainly, 14they turned their back on him, saying, ‘He is tutored! He is possessed!’ 15We shall hold the torment back for a while – you are sure to return (to Us) – 16and on the Day We seize (them) mightily We shall exact retribution."

Finally, to address your legitimate argument of ‘how is it possible for something to be imminent if certain events must first transpire?’ The answer is that God, in His sublime wisdom, left the true nature of the Day of Judgment and the Hour to be decoded only by the last generation, which will witness the Overwhelming Earthquake of the Final Hour. Hence, all earlier generations, from their perspective, thought the Hour can arrive at any time and therefore imminent. However, the last generation only decoded the key landmark events after they had already transpired; ergo the believers of the last generation know the Hour is imminent. Thus, God planned the unfolding of events, in such a manner, that there is no contradiction between His established practices of sending clear signs contemporaneous to the generation doomed for destruction, and the imminent nature of the Hour, as viewed from the perspective of earlier generations. In addition, knowledge of the exact timing of the Hour’s arrival (i.e. the exact second the Earthquake is suddenly unleashed) resides only with God, so there is no contradiction with verse 7:187 because the event will be sudden, and for the disbelievers, unexpected.

As you are well aware, I have already decoded Zul-Qarnayn’s travels and identified the war of Gog and Magog as the Korean War of 1950-1953, which obviously has already transpired, and which you were kind enough to post on this forum. I am about to send you the second chapter which delves deeply into the etymology of Gog and Magog and thereby completely seals their identities; and I have already identified the true meanings of the other key landmark events which are decoded in the 3rd and 4th chapters of my book, ‘Qur’anic Odyssey.’

With peace and regards,

Imran

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Imran,

May peace be with you too.

With respect, I sadly find that you have not provided any concrete evidence to the clear contentions that I have raised against your perspective with supporting Quranic verses. Rather it seems to me at least, that in the response that you have provided, you have drawn unwarranted analogies and inferences. It also appears that you have completely backtracked from your clear statement that "1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun" by committing microsurgery of terms and playing with semantics to support your view.

For example, whilst clearly stating that "The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.", you further state “I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour.”

With respect, I find it rather desperate to attempt to discern and separate ‘begin’ with ‘occur’, in the context being discussed. If something has begun, then it can easily be interpreted as occurring.

You make a peculiar analogy:

“As an analogy, think of the ‘Day’ and the ‘Hour’ very much like a clock in human terms. An hour is just a portion of a full 24hour day. So, at some point after the DOJ commences, the Hour arrives, but the DOJ had already started beforehand.“

Firstly, 'yaum' (day) in the Quran merely implies any period in which something occurs or a particular event befalls. For example, the heavens and the earth were created in 6 ayyam (periods / epochs).  Even the 'hour' is referred to as a 'yaum' in the Quran.

030:012
"And on the Day (yaum) that the Hour will be established, the guilty will be in despair"

Thus, Sa’ah, usually rendered as ‘hour’ simply refers to a particular time / period in which certain events will befall. This can also be referred to as a ‘yaum’ as can be attested by the above verse, 30:12. Therefore, the period before the hour can be referred to as a ‘yaum’ (for example, as the period we are in now); it can refer to the period in which the hour has come as in verse 30:12; yaum can also refer to a period when the heavens and the earth are recreated and yaum can also refer to a period when everyone is judged in front of their Lord on the Day of Judgment. Thus to provide a clock analogy which generalises ‘yaum’ in the manner that you have is wholly unwarranted.

Furthermore, the reason the Quran does not labour the point of the Day of Judgment  arriving suddenly is not because it will occur unaware as you suggest, which I have shown cannot be the case (e.g 37:20), but because it is preceded by the hour and the two 'surs' (trumpets). With respect, this is a serious weakness / oversight on your part.

You assert:

1. In reference to the war of Gog and Magog, verse 18:99 states, “On that Day, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…” Clearly, the ‘Day’ referred to here is the DOJ.

There is absolutely no unequivocal proof that the 'yaum' in this context is a reference to the Day of Judgement.  Once again, I have already clearly stated that 'yaum' (day) in the Quran merely implies any period in which something occurs or a particular event befalls. Even the 'hour' is referred to a 'yaum' in the Quran (Please see verse 30:12 above).

Therefore, the reference to Gog and Magog could easily be a reference to the 'yaum' (period) when the hour has arrived.

You further assert:

"2. In regards to the prophecy of the clouds of visible smoke, the smoke will appear on the DOJ (44:10), and then disappear (44:15), and only later will the Hour arrive (44:16). By necessity, this obligates that the smoke is a warning and harbinger of the imminent Hour because the smoke disappears in advance of the Hour’s arrival:"

This is a wholly unwarranted interpretation of the text and a somewhat misleading translation. Please see below a closer rendition of the Arabic text from my humble perspective:

"Then watch for the Day (period) when the sky shall bring visible smoke (44:10); Enveloping the people. This will be a painful punishment. (44:11) (They will say) Our Lord! Remove from us the punishment; surely we are believers (44:12). How can there be for them the reminder, when verily there came to them a clear messenger (44:13). Then they turned away from him and said, "One taught, a mad man / possessed' (44:14). Indeed, We remove the punishment a little, indeed, you return (44:15). (The) Day We will seize with a great seizure. Indeed, We will take retribution (44:16). And certainly We tried before them the people of Pharaoh, and there came to them a noble messenger, (44:17)"

As readers will note, firstly, there is no mention of the Day of Judgment in verse 44:10. This is simply your interpolation. All the verse refers to is a day (yaum - period) when visible smoke will be evident. I have already mentioned above that in the Quran, even the hour can be seen as a 'yaum' (day) - 30:12. Therefore, the reference to the smoke could easily be a reference to the 'yaum' (period) when the hour has arrived.

Furthermore, verse 44:15 does not say that the penalty will disappear, but rather infers that if the punishment was to be removed a little, the transgressors would simply return, arguably to their old ways. The Quran merely uses this as a statement of fact, that whenever punishments are removed, transgressors simply go back to their old ways of committing transgressions. This is further supported by verse 44:17 soon after, which cites the example of the people of Pharaoh who did just that. I note you seem to have used 'Abdel Haleem's rendition (to Us) which is peculiar given that the context of 'old ways' is supported by 44:17.

With regards verse 44:16, you have once again appeared to have misinterpreted / misread this. This verse simply continues by saying that on the day, the transgressors will be seized and retribution will be meted out. This could easily be a reference to the final hour or even, the subsequent Day of Judgment. Both are 'yaums', yet separate.

As to your question:

"So I pose the question: how is it possible that God’s established practices (which cannot be violated) as they relate to the divinely decreed destruction of a community, be upheld for each  and every community destroyed in the past, but not upheld for the last generation destined to witness the final, great apocalypse of the Hour?"

You appeared to have provided, according to you the only answer possible which is "And the answer can only be that God’s established practices are obliged to be upheld:"

I submit with respect, that notwithstanding that God's established practices are obliged to be upheld, that this is not the only answer and thus forms one of the many serious contentions I have with your theological perspectives. There is a big difference between the destruction of an isolated community after the truth has been made manifest to them (as in the past) and the total annihilation of the Universe which not only includes those on planet earth but also everything in the entire Universe. From my humble perspective, you have erroneously conflated the two separate issues without warrant.

Finally, as discussed, please can you kindly restrict your academic discussions with me to the forum where I will be happy to respond to you if I can God willing, and please do not send me any further emails or chapters of your work personally.

I have already respectfully made clear to you my serious academic contentions with your theological views. You are of course free to post your material on whatever other social platforms that you deem fit which is your prerogative. I am happy however, for you to provide a link to that resource on this forum for the benefit of readers, if you so wish.

With peace and regards,
Joseph

[Imran Faruqui]

Dear Joseph,

You write:

“It also appears that you have completely backtracked from your clear statement that "1. The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun" by committing microsurgery of terms and playing with semantics to support your view.

For example, whilst clearly stating that "The Day of Judgment begins but without any obvious signs; so mankind is unaware it has in fact begun.", you further state “I have never stated the DOJ will occur (as you have misquoted) but rather begin before the arrival of the Final Hour.”

With respect, I find it rather desperate to attempt to discern and separate ‘begin’ with ‘occur’, in the context being discussed. If something has begun, then it can easily be interpreted as occurring.”

I find it incredulous that you would consider the clarification of a key aspect of the DOJ – on whether the period began, transpired, and was COMPLETED PRIOR to the onset of the Hour (as may be inferred by the term ‘occur’), versus the DOJ began prior to the onset of the Hour, but CONTINUED ON and the Hour is considered to be part of the DOJ (as was my point with ‘begin’) – to be microsurgery. This is an important point and significant contention between our respective theological positions and therefore demanded clarification and which I subsequently expounded upon.

You also claim that I ‘backtracked’ from my claim that the DOJ began but without mankind’s awareness it had begun. I did no such thing, and went out of my way to restate that position in my post, which I have again quoted here:

“This distinction between the DOJ and the Final Hour is crucial and simply cannot be emphasized enough; with the clear implication the DOJ – since it will not appear suddenly – will commence without mankind’s realization it has begun. This is the reason why the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly. This fact/distinction must be considered and taken into account.”

You can appreciate that with such obvious oversights on your part, it begs one to wonder whether you have read my post with due scrutiny.

With regards to the onset of the DOJ, you claim:

“Furthermore, the reason the Quran does not labour the point of the Day of Judgment  arriving suddenly is not because it will occur unaware as you suggest, which I have shown cannot be the case (e.g 37:20), but because it is preceded by the hour and the two 'surs' (trumpets). With respect, this is a serious weakness / oversight on your part.”

The assertion that the DOJ is preceded by the hour / the two soundings of the trumpet is EXPLICITLY REFUTED by the Qur’an:

78:17 “A time has been appointed for the DAY OF DECISION: 18 A DAY WHEN THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND and you will come forward in crowds, 19 when the sky will open up like wide portals, 20 when the mountains will vanish like a mirage.”

As is clear from verse 78:17-18, the sounding of the trumpet is explicitly stated to be INCLUDED in the DOJ. Consequently, since the DOJ cannot be considered to commence after the Hour/two soundings of the Trumpet, this leaves only two possibilities:

1. The commencement of the DOJ coincides with the onset of the Hour. However, as the Hour will arrive suddenly, and the DOJ is NEVER mentioned as arriving suddenly, this option is discounted.

2. The DOJ commences prior to the onset of the Hour, but without mankind’s awareness it has begun. By method of elimination, this is the only possibility left, and the position I have maintained all along. Furthermore, as the sounding of the Trumpet is included in the DOJ, as per 78:17-18, the Hour, therefore, is considered to be part of the DOJ, albeit a subset; also a position which I have maintained all along.

With some reflection on the above, you may want to reconsider your position on the DOJ vis-à-vis the Hour, as your current premise has serious theological deficits.

With the above elucidated, every landmark event which portends the Hour, when the ‘Day’ or ‘period’ is mentioned, must therefore refer to the DOJ. Hence, (i) verse 18:99 “ON THAT DAY, We shall let them surge against each other like waves…;” and (ii) 44:10, ‘WATCH OUT FOR THE DAY when the sky brings forth clouds of smoke for all to see,’ both refer to the period known as the DOJ. This supports the conclusion that these events are obliged to precede the Hour, and serve as warning signs to mankind; a mercy from God, for our Lord is never unjust.

Notwithstanding the above, let us further scrutinize your claim that key landmark events will coincide with the Hour and not precede it. Remember that the Hour will arrive suddenly, and specifically, it is the sudden arrival of the Great Earthquake which will mark its onset:

22:1 “People, be mindful of your Lord, for the EARTHQUAKE OF THE LAST HOUR will be a mighty thing: 2 on the Day you see it, every nursing mother will think no more of her baby, every pregnant female will miscarry, you will think people are drunk when they are not, so severe will be God’s torment.”

If there is any doubt the onset of the Hour is marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake, verses 69:1-8 should put this to rest:

69:1 The INEVITABLE HOUR! 2What is the INEVITABLE HOUR? 3What will explain to you what the INEVITABLE HOUR is? 4 The people of Thamud and Ad denied that the CRASHING BLOW would come: 5Thamud was destroyed by a DEAFENING BLAST; 6 Ad was destroyed by a FURIOUS WIND 7 that God let loose against them for seven consecutive nights, eight consecutive days, so that you could have seen its people lying dead like hollow palm-trunks. 8 Can you see any trace of them now?

The verses above clearly demonstrate, by way of example of the ‘CRASHING BLOW,’ the ‘DEAFENING BLAST,’ and the ‘FURIOUS WIND,’ which describe the nature of the Hour; that it will be marked by the sudden unleashing of an utterly devastating event – in other words, a worldwide earthquake of almost unimaginable intensity and proportions.

Now I ask you, how is it possible for Gog and Magog to go to war whilst the earth is being turned upside down by a massive, global level, off the Richter scale Earthquake? The two tribes (along with the rest of mankind) will be fighting for their lives, certainly not each other, which will be the very last thing on their minds. It is a laughable impossibility.

Similarly, regarding the clouds of smoke, no one would pay attention to the torment of the visible smoke in the sky when the ground from under their feet is shaking like a jack hammer and destroying everything in sight. It is also a laughable impossibility.

Clearly, therefore, the key landmark events are obliged to transpire prior to the arrival of the Hour, and hence are warnings to mankind of the Great Earthquake’s imminent arrival.

Furthermore, you assert:

“I submit with respect, that notwithstanding that God's established practices are obliged to be upheld, that this is not the only answer and thus forms one of the many serious contentions I have with your theological perspectives. There is a big difference between the destruction of an isolated community after the truth has been made manifest to them (as in the past) and the total annihilation of the Universe which not only includes those on planet earth but also everything in the entire Universe. From my humble perspective, you have erroneously conflated the two separate issues without warrant.”

Irrespective of the fact that the Universe will be transformed into another Heaven, the fact remains that on planet earth, which has now reached the stage of global civilization, the global community will be destroyed by a supernatural act of God when the Hour is unleashed. Consequently, as with past communities ordained for destruction, God’s established practices are obliged to be applied on the Last Generation, and therefore clear warning signs must be CONTEMPORANEOUSLY sent prior to the arrival of the Great Earthquake; which I have supported with clear arguments above.

You also request:

“Finally, as discussed, please can you kindly restrict your academic discussions with me to the forum where I will be happy to respond to you if I can God willing, and please do not send me any further emails or chapters of your work personally.”

No problem at all, you will not be receiving any emails from me.

With peace and regards,

Imran

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Imran,

I know you have intimated to me in your email(s) that you are reliant on translations and have clearly stated that you do not speak Arabic. However, from my perspective, it is becoming tedious that in our discussion, I am having to repeatedly draw your attention to Arabic words behind the translations you are using which I feel that you should be familiar with, or at least take into account.

Let me also respectfully remind you that it is you that repeatedly solicited my opinion / proof reads in the past to your works and I find it very disappointing, that when I am presenting you clear critiques, you are becoming overtly defensive without warrant. It also appears to me that you are seemingly dismissing my time and effort to respond to your tedious perspectives.

Sadly I find very little, if anything, of what you have shared to provide any concrete credence to your perspectives.

Furthermore, what I find incredulous is that although I have repeatedly intimated to you that the term 'yaum' (day) does not imply a restrictive interpretation with supporting Quranic evidence, you still, repeatedly make the same mistake of seemingly dismissing this.

For example you assert: "The assertion that the DOJ is preceded by the hour / the two soundings of the trumpet is EXPLICITLY REFUTED by the Qur’an:"

You then provide the following translation to back your view:

78:17 “A time has been appointed for the DAY OF DECISION: 18 A DAY WHEN THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND and you will come forward in crowds, 19 when the sky will open up like wide portals, 20 when the mountains will vanish like a mirage.”

Where does the Quran support your view brother Imran? (rhetorical question)

All the Quran refers to is 'yawma fasli' which merely implies a day of sorting out / distinguishing / separation (fasl) and it is this day, that the Sur will be blown and everyone will be summoned to their Lord for judgment (i.e. sorting out). Clearly this is a reference to the second blowing of the ‘Sur’ which will bring forth the Day of Judgment. 

Please kindly allow me to provide you / respected readers, with a translation:

078:017-18
"Indeed, the Day of sorting out / distinguishing / separation (fasl) is an appointed time. The Day (in which) the Sur will be blown and you will come forth in crowds"

How can humankind be separated / distinguished on the Day of Judgment before the final hour even arrives? I humbly submit, this is a most fantastic suggestion.

You then assert:

"With some reflection on the above, you may want to reconsider your position on the DOJ vis-à-vis the Hour, as your current premise has serious theological deficits."

I humbly assert that it is actually you that has serious theological deficits and not my premises as shown above.

You then make further bizarre statements. For example, you say:

If there is any doubt the onset of the Hour is marked by the Overwhelming Earthquake, verses 69:1-8 should put this to rest:

69:1 The INEVITABLE HOUR! 2What is the INEVITABLE HOUR? 3What will explain to you what the INEVITABLE HOUR is? 4 The people of Thamud and Ad denied that the CRASHING BLOW would come: 5Thamud was destroyed by a DEAFENING BLAST; 6 Ad was destroyed by a FURIOUS WIND 7 that God let loose against them for seven consecutive nights, eight consecutive days, so that you could have seen its people lying dead like hollow palm-trunks. 8 Can you see any trace of them now?

The verses above clearly demonstrate, by way of example of the ‘CRASHING BLOW,’ the ‘DEAFENING BLAST,’ and the ‘FURIOUS WIND,’ which describe the nature of the Hour; that it will be marked by the sudden unleashing of an utterly devastating event – in other words, a worldwide earthquake of almost unimaginable intensity and proportions.

Now I ask you, how is it possible for Gog and Magog to go to war whilst the earth is being turned upside down by a massive, global level, off the Richter scale Earthquake? The two tribes (along with the rest of mankind) will be fighting for their lives, certainly not each other, which will be the very last thing on their minds. It is a laughable impossibility.

Again, I find that it is your faulty interpretations and the conclusions that you have drawn from them that what has made the matter, arguably problematic. For example, you cite, the 'CRASHING BLOW', the DEAFENING BLAST’ and the FURIOUS WIND' as describing the nature of the hour. Yet, in the very verses you share (69:1ff) - see above, these descriptions even according to the translation you are using, refer to destruction of Thamud (deafening blast), the destruction of Aad (furious wind) and not the final hour per se.

Then you seemingly make use of a dubious translation by rendering 'al-haqatu' (which is better rendered as 'The inevitable reality'), as referring to 'the hour'. The 'inevitable reality' (al-haqatu) could simply be a reference to the period when the first 'Sur' is blown which is supported by verse 69:13 and not a reference to the final hour which precedes it. Thus God and Magog's reference could easily occur in the final hour but before the first 'Sur' is blown, which is the inevitable reality that verse 69:1 could refer to.

This arguable erroneous interpretation on your part is then carried to the 'clouds of smoke', which again is quite plausibly a reference to an event that occurs during the hour and not an event that occurs after the first 'Sur'.  Thus this is not a 'laughable impossibility' as you sadly, facetiously put it.

Please may I kindly request that you do not continue this discussion further. From my understanding at least, you are clearly far too invested both emotionally and from a time resource perspective to arguably heed anything which may challenge your view, despite the weight of evidence against your view. You appear to be on a dogmatic mission and nothing I will say with evidence is seemingly going to change your mind or even possibly, halt you momentarily, to take stock.


With peace and regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] Before or after resurrection 22:2
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1468.msg6743#msg6743

[Imran Faruqui]

Dear Joseph,

I respect your wish to end this discussion, however, please allow me to make this one last short post.

For the sake of simplicity, if for a moment we omit the names assigned to various periods, the fact remains that the release of Gog and Magog, as well as the appearance of the visible clouds of smoke, must precede the arrival of the last Great Earthquake because it will pretty much level everything. Consequently, Gog and Magog/clouds of smoke are de facto harbingers of the Earthquake, and thus they serve as beacons/warning signs of the Earthquake’s imminent arrival. And that’s the main point I am attempting to convey.

Peace.

Imran

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Imran,

As-salamu alaykum

With respect dear brother, I find it comforting that you have now sought to simplify matters when I have sought simplicity from the onset.  For example, from my humble perspective of the Quran, believers should live their lives with the view that the final hour will arrive unexpectedly. The final hour is a harbinger of the Day of Judgment and occurs before it.

I have never had a problem in admitting that the reference to Gog and Magog will occur before the Day of Judgement or any event associated with it.

What I respectfully have a problem with, is your assertion that the Day of Judgment will begin prior to the hour and that in fact, it has already begun. This view of yours has been repeatedly challenged with Quranic support which you appear to have sadly dismissed. I hope you will reconsider your position in due course, God willing, even if only from a mere academic perspective.

For example, you appear to be repeatedly referring to a 'Great Earthquake'.

'Zalzalah' in verse 22:1 simply means a commotion, agitation or a convulsion which is consistent with the hour in which mankind will be in a state of frenzy.  Its verb forms 'zulzila' and 'zilzal' can be seen in such verses as 2:214, 33:1 and 99:1 respectively to imply a commotion, a frenzy of some sorts. This commotion applies to believers that were tried and were thus convulsed / shaken in the past (2:214; 33:1 - zulzila) or as a reference to the earth (99:1 - zulzila). The Quran makes use of the same words.

The convulsion of verse 99:1 is clearly cited as a period where the earth will be able to declare her tidings (99:4) because she will be inspired to do so (99:5). This is possibly a reference to the earth being able to allow all those that have perished since Adam to be issued forth to the judgment (99:6) and bear witness to the truth. It is on this day that mankind will be sorted with a view to be shown their deeds (99:6). Thus this convulsion can easily be understood as coinciding with the Day of Judgement after the final hour.

You assert:

Consequently, Gog and Magog/clouds of smoke are de facto harbingers of the Earthquake, and thus they serve as beacons/warning signs of the Earthquake’s imminent arrival.

I have absolutely no qualms with the suggestion that the event of Gog & Magog and the ‘smoke’ are harbingers of the ‘earthquake’, if one means ‘zulzila’ as an event which will transpire on the Day of Judgment when everyone is judged (99:1; 99:6).  This would mean that the event of Gog & Magog and the ‘smoke’ will transpire before the Day of Judgment (i.e. in the final hour).

However, the final hour will come to mankind unawares, unexpected.

It may be (a simple possible example), that a catastrophic event may occur, initiated by a people that can be recognised as the Quranic ‘Gog & Magog’ (18:99), which may lead to a full scale nuclear fuelled war involving other nations causing utter destruction. Nations are engulfed in massive nuclear firestorms and the smoke from nuclear fires rise into the stratosphere where it spreads across the globe (a deep smoke envelops the earth and engulfs mankind) (44:10-11).  Humankind is stricken, there is immense frenzy and commotion where not even nursing mothers will care for their nurslings and the sickness and death will mean pregnant mothers will drop their loads. Mankind will be in a stupor, befogged state (22:2). Children will become stricken with serious diseases and the immense commotion may even turn their hair grey (73:17).  Only God knows best how long such a period could last.

Please kindly note that the above paragraph in italics this is simply cited as a suggestion / a mere example (and not to be taken as fact / or as confirmation of what I believe will occur). Only God knows best.

However, all these events could easily occur in the final hour yet before the onset of the Day of Judgment or the blowing of the two ‘Surs’. That is my underlying point.

Thank you for kindly agreeing to end this discussion.

Regards,
Joseph


For the benefit of wider respected readers, please see below my humble perspective of a Quranic timeline of events. Wa alaikum assalam.

• The moon is split prior to the 'final period' (the hour - Sa'ah) / coincides with the onset of the 'final period', the hour (Sa'ah) - 54:1.
• The calamitous, bitter, violent hour arrives. Gog and Magog are unleashed (18:99). The sky with visible smoke will envelope people (44:10-11). The intensity of the period will be so violent (zalzala - 22:1), that nursing mothers will indeed forget their nurslings and pregnant mothers will drop their loads. Humankind will almost be in an intoxicated, befogged state (22:2). It will even turn the hair of children grey (73:17). There is immense commotion amongst mankind. The 'final period' (hour) arrives before and extends to and includes the Day of Judgment. Hence, the 'final period' (hour) can also be seen as a harbinger of the Day of Judgment.
• The first 'Sur' brings an end (a total annihilation) to the heavens and the earth (e.g. The stars are destroyed / put out / mountains are blown away / ground to powder / the earth is violently shaken - 77:8-10; 69:14).
• A new Universe is created / recreated (21:104; 3:133). [Epochs undetermined and in a manner that suits God / by His will].
• The second 'Sur' summons all from the dead to their Lord (i.e. resurrection).
• The event (Waqiya) will befall - The Day of Judgment in front of the Lord (Master of the Day of Judgment). The earth / land will convulse immensely (zulzila, zilzal - 99:1) and she will be able to declare her tidings (99:4) because she will be inspired to do so by God (99:5). This is possibly a reference to the earth being able to allow all those that have perished since Adam to be issued forth to the judgment (99:6). It is on this day that mankind will be sorted with a view to be shown their deeds (99:6). It is here that mankind will be in three broad classes (56:6). The righteous will inherit the land (21:105).