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Offline Seraphina

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Quran, 7:20 (Yusuf Ali) :"Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."
This verse popped into my sight during my daily Quran reading/studying. This insinuation of the Devil is something to reflect upon, and very thought-provoking. Here's why.
As we are aware, this conversation took place during Adam and Eve's sinless condition, while they hadn't approached the forbidden fruit yet, and were living in Paradise. Paradise, as we know, is an eternal abode - whoever enters there, dwells there forever. Why would Satan tempt them with eternity if they already had the eternity? Weren't Adam and Eve created to abide eternally in Paradise, but after they disobeyed their Lord they were sent down to earth to live ''for an appointed (limited) time''? It just doesn't make sense to me that they would be created to live in Paradise for a limited time as mortals, and after their death what would they be rewarded with? Paradise? Furthermore, if they were mortals, why would God punish their disobedience with something they already had-mortality?
I would be so thankful if brother Joseph would give us an opinion on this matter, although I'm aware of his busy schedule and limited time. May Allah ease your works and tasks,and give you health and strength, brother Joseph :)
Your sister Seraphina Rosa.
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 08:22:10 PM »
Asalamu Alykum Seraphina

I think the article below will give you some insight about what your thinking about Insha'Allah

ADAM (pbuh) AND JANNAH - AN EARTHLY ABODE OR PARADISE?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm

Peace

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 02:35:49 PM »
Thank you brother Hamzeh, but, as you might have noticed, my question had nothing to do with the real location of paradise or whether he was created in earth or another location. My question was in regards to Adam's nature before he ate the fruit (let me repeat it again):
Did he lose immortality after eating that fruit, or he never had it to begin with? As we know, The Quran is crystal-clear: the paradise is an eternal abode and those who abide in it, abide in it for ever. And if Adam was placed there, that's because he was immortal, just like will be those who are sent there after the day of judgment. The moment he was banished from paradise, he was sent down to earth for a limited time. His life as 'an appointed time'' is never mentioned while he was in paradise, but only after disobeying God, when he was banished from paradise (2:38). Now, if he was created immortal, why would Satan tempt him with something he already had:(immortality)? And if he was created mortal, why after eating the fruit was his life reduced into ''an appointed time'', when it was an appointed time anyway, since he was mortal? And how would God place a mortal being in an eternal abode (paradise)?
You see, as an ardent and enthusiastic student of brother Joseph, I have read all of his articles (ok, maybe that's a big word, let's say 99% of his articles), and everytime I ask a question here, you can be sure that I have searched through his articles, and through this forum, and I haven't found something that answers that question. Otherwise I would never disturb anyone with questions that are already answered.
I think these answers might be beneficial for others as well, since we are asked all the time how were we created, why were we banished from paradise, is there a way to go back there, and so on.
God bless you and thank you for your input,
Your sister Seraphina :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 08:00:33 PM »
Asalamu Alykum Sister Seraphina

The reason I suggested that article is because it explains what your asking.

First Adam was not created in the Paradise that the believers are promised. He was not created in the eternal Paradise. He was created in a paradise in the earth itself. A garden somewhere in the earth which in arabic is still Jannah. And he was told to go down from it( Ih'bi'tu). Now this doesn't mean that he necessarily went from the eternal paradise to earth. It can simply imply God has commanded him to go from a higher state to a lower one in this Earth that he was created in. The supporting verses are below which the article clarifies.

020.117
"Then We said: "O Adam! indeed, this is an enemy to you and your wife: so let him not get you both from the Garden (Jannate), so that you would suffer". 
 
020.118
"Surely it is (ordained) for you that you shall not be hungry therein nor to go naked"
 
020.119
"And that you shall not suffer from thirst nor shall you feel the heat of the sun"


So perhaps he was never made to live forever, but was made to never go hungry, never go naked, and never get hot. But because he sinned God has taken those blessing from him and was made to go down from a higher state or luxury state to a lower poorer state.

The article further clarifies how the word "ih'bitu" (go down) is used other places in the Quran.

'GO DOWN'
007:024
"(God) said "Go down (Arabic: ih'bitu) (from hence) with enmity between yourselves. And on earth will be your dwelling place and livelihood for a time""
The expression 'ih'bitu' is often understood to mean a movement from paradise to planet Earth as a shift between two very different locations. From a Quran's perspective, there is no warrant for such a restrictive interpretation.
 
We note the same expression used for the Children of Israel who were not in any other location but planet Earth.
002:061 (part)
"...Go down (ih'bitu) to Egypt...
 
The verb 'habata' (ih'bit) simply means a change of state from one (arguably better) to another, to descend from a better state of being to a lower one, a lower rank, state of dignity or a change in condition, to become degraded, or to go forth (as seen in verse 11:48).[1]

Adam never had immortality to begin with. Thats what the devil promised him.
And Adam was not placed in the Paradise that is eternal. He was not created or placed in a Paradise that was somewhere other than the Earth. The Paradise(Garden) that the Quran is speaking about in the context of Adam is a place right here on Earth.

There is at times where I read Joseph's articles and I thought I understood them, but when I reread them again I get a more better understanding of what he meant. I think if you go back and reread the article it will explain what your asking unless I don't get what your asking.

Peace Seraphina




[1]http://quransmessage.com/articles/adam%20and%20jannah%20FM3.htm
 

Offline samson

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 10:37:34 PM »

For me, when I read the Quran the verses where the Devil tries to deceive Adam and Eve by promising them eternal life clearly means that they were not immortal:

Quote
But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."
- http://quran.com/7/20

Maybe some readers get confused with them being in gardens of the hereafter which is not the case as explained by Joseph Islam.

I'd also add that even if Adam and Eve did not sin/disobey it does not mean that God may not have asked them or their descendants to leave the garden at some other point in time in order to test them with hardship in the life of this world. Which means we can't "blame" Adam and Eve for being expelled from the garden and for being the cause of us having to work for our living on earth and having hardship.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 02:37:21 AM »
Dear brother Hamzeh, thank you for your patience in this discussion, and dear brother Samson, welcome in forum, and thanks for participating in discussion with me :)
I've been going through articles of brother Joseph in this topic, and in Quranic story of this event, and here are my conclusions, (which I can't guarantee are 100% correct, only God knows best, but I tried my best to understand as best as I could).
1)Universe (including earth) was created in stages. Seems that Earth was also meant to be a Paradise in stages - first, a small portion of it was Paradise, a garden in which were to be placed the two first creatures, and as they would multiply, the garden would expand, until the whole earth would turn into a Paradise.
2)God creates a creature from clay, to be placed in earth as a vicegerent. This creature, Adam, is created in the best of stature, and is given a free will. As a vicegerent of God, he would inherit the earth that would be a paradise - an eternal abode of felicity, where he wouldn't have to worry or grieve: no hunger, no thirst, no shame of nakedness, no illnesses, no death. God would provide for him all the best, eternally...as long as he proves to be exercising justly his free will. As long as he was proving to be worthy of being honored as a vicegerent on earth. And it was not a difficult task: one fruit was not to be consumed. He had everything good and delicious he wished for, he wouldn't feel the neediness of a fruit.
3)Our God informs us in the Quran that he is fully aware of his creatures: what they whisper inside their hearts, what they feel, what they wish for, what they dream for. So, He is aware that one of His creatures is developing jealousy and hatred towards Adam, and towards his exalted status. This creature, Iblees, the jinn created from smokeless fire, considers himself to be better than Adam, and therefore, more worthy of Adam's status. But God never punishes his creatures for a mere thought or feeling. Furthermore, if He would punish Iblees without him exposing himself, his perfect justice would be put in doubt in front of other creatures that would arguably be surprised and ask why (let us remember when angels were surprised ad asked God why was he creating a creature which would shed blood on earth).
4)God creates a situation where Iblees would expose himself. He gathers all of the creatures, and a command is given through angels:"Prostrate before Adam!". Iblees's pride couldn't bare it - his jealousy can't be hidden anymore, and he doesn't prostrate. God demands an explanation, and he answers "I'm better than him. You created me from fire, and him you created from clay!"Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."(7:12, 15:33). God's punishment is inevitable now, and Iblees is banished from Paradise. His hatred towards Adam and his progeny is even greater now, he doesn't have to be hidden enemy anymore, now he's an open enemy and swears vengeance. He asks God to reprieve him his punishment, for he will prove to God those very people that God punished him for, are the same that will disobey him like he(Iblees) did.
5)The place where Iblees was banished from was Paradise. Being in Paradise together with angels and other jinns, all of them would arguably have heard and known the command given to Adam not to go near the tree, because he would become a wrongdoer. And a wrongdoer loses the eternal abode in Paradise. His sufferings and death is inevitable, and one day his answerability about the way he used free will is also inevitable. Arrogance and narcissism always raise self-confidence - He is so confident he will make them wrongdoers that he asks God to reprieve him until the day they are raised from dead to answer to God for their choices. God reprieves him, and warns Adam and his spouse to beware of him, because he wants to expel them from Paradise.
6)Iblees starts immediately to work towards his goal. He knows that the forbidden fruit is the only chance he has, the only thing that could serve his purpose. So, he has to make them eat from it. How?
"Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal."(7:20). When we examine this verse, we can see something interesting in Iblees's words. As we know, angels are also creatures of the same God as us, but they have no physical body, they are very powerful (example: the way two of them destroyed the people of Lot), and they don't need to eat or drink like us humans. As to humans, they are of lesser power than angels, and they need food and drink, which was provided from God (ever since humanity exists), what made them somehow more dependent on God. By telling them that if they ate the fruit they would become 'like angels, or become of the immortals'', he was insinuating that they would become a type of immortals similar to angels: more powerful, and in no need of God's provisions of food and drink, which means more independence from God . He was instilling in them the greed for more than they were given - the same feelings he had in himself. He succeeded, and they ate the fruit. The consequences?:
"And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."(2:36).This is where Adam and Eve's life appears for the first time as limited/finite. They had lost immortality and felicity - outside the Paradise they were going to face suffering, and finally death. But Allah accepted their repentance the moment they pleaded for forgiveness, so there was hope that they would regain the Paradise they lost - that depended from their obedience from then until their death. Allah promised to take care also for the progeny of Adam and Eve, that would be born in earth during this time, and that was not responsible for being outside the Paradise (they were affected by the choice of their parents, but they were not guilty of it, nauzubilah). So, since they were to be born in a life full of hardships, and since they would be even more vulnerable to Devil's traps then Adam and Eve, God would personally take care of them and give them a chance to get the Paradise that was originally meant for them too:
"We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve."(2:38).
"Descend from Paradise - all, [your descendants] being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray nor suffer."(20:123).
It is up to our choice to follow our Lord's guidance (Quran), and to regain eternall life and happiness, and the Paradise that Devil swore we will lose.
As I said, these are solely the conclusions from my research on this topic, and an answer from brother Joseph would be extremely helpful, but anyways, in the end, God knows best.
Your sister Seraphina.
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline good logic

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 09:15:37 PM »
Peace Seraphina.

In my opinion you are doing a good job by trying to analyse and check all  the details to make sense of who /where was Adam and why we were created.

That is the best way to go.

There is nothing wrong in reading other opinions/explanations and take what agrees with Qoran.

For example here is another point of view, if you have read/seen it before, ignore it:

http://submission.org/App7.html

At the end , keep  studying Qoran and asking the Author, the creator of everything,, to  explain it to you.

Do not hurry understanding Qoran, GOD is aware of all those who sincerely want to grasp HIS message .

May the Lord bless you and answer your queries for you.
Peace.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 11:53:00 PM »
Well, that's what Allah wants me to do brother :) he gave me the logic and the ability to reason, and he gave me the Quran, for which he says that it is a book to reflect upon. People want to have everything said in detail, they don't realize that Quran doesn't say everything in great detail, it is up to us to analyze and reflect upon details of events and upon the inner world of the personages that take part in it. There are things that are not told straightforward in Quran, but we find out about them after studying what we have in the Quran, and reaching our conclusions. Thank you for your kind words, peace to you too :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Duster

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 07:30:07 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic .... I agree with you that everyone should try to use their own senses and read widely and I am very keen to read Seraphina's post...clearly she is a person that thinks!!!....however what i ...respectfully...take issue to is your constant use of Rashad Khalifa's translations on this forum and ..what it appears to me ....you quietly trying to promote the works of the submitters on this forum.....anyhow that is how it seems to me...That i feel has has been the main problem.... of many disagreements on this forum between you and others on this forum including bro joseph.....I have found that even when something is made simple / clear to you...you have ignored it and still take the viewpoint that the submitters group seem to take .....So -  on one side you suggest to others to use their own mind..but on the other you seem to promote all the theologies of the submitters and often it seems to me that your main intention is to promote the submitters group / rasha khalifa's work on this forum......So it doesn't surprise me that you would post this link to the submitters group but making it appear that everyone should read widely...why didn't you provide the thoughts of someone else????.....I'm sure there is a policy on this forum for not making use of this forum to promote the views of other groups / people......????>>> Just an observations ...don't take it personally!

here is a link i found with many of your disagreements / posts where I also felt you seem to simply take the position of what the submitters group take.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.msg6773#msg6773

If i may ask...can you provide me any areas of theologies or religious views in which you differ with Rashad Khalifa or the submitters group???

Offline good logic

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 08:32:25 PM »
Greetings Duster.

I have always tried to stay within the topic and when I have given my views or some links,I have done so in the belief that they give an opinion on the topic for people to check themselves and take the best or leave altogether.

I have no intention of promoting any sect or religion. I have always stood for "True Islam" which is total loyalty and submission to GOD Alone. That is the only religion acceptable to the creator. My site will confirm this for you:

http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/

I believe Qoran. I am loyal to GOD Alone. I do not belong to any sect or religion.

 However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?

I agree with some of the views of this site as well.

Brother, I hope this clarifies for you .

I seek GOD Alone and the truth.
GOD less you.
Peace.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 10:53:50 PM »
Shalom brother Duster, and Peace brother Good logic
Brother Duster, thank you for your kind words :) Praised be our God (Alhamdulilah) if I am "a person that thinks", because that's the greatest gift Allah would have given me - the ability to reason, analyse, judge. And to be able to do it, He has been given me most of informations in the Quran. I can find out the little non mentionned peaces by using my logic/reason, and by analysing what the Quran says.
Brother Good logic, I didn't tell you this before bcs I didn't want to sound harsh, but I have the same issue like Duster: your Rashad-Khalifa-based answers. You claim to be a follower of the true Islam, and that's the goal of every member of this forum I guess. But the thing is, you keep giving support to the theories of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God and who threw doubts in veracity of Quran by claiming that two if its verses were false. Both of these claims can be proven as false from the Quran. Is this the true Islam you're talking about?
Please don't take it personally, and sorry I went off topic, but I felt it necessary to tell you this, as a sister advices her brother :)
God bless you both,
Your sister Seraphina
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline samson

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2015, 02:28:23 PM »
However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?

Problem is that anyone can use that argument to back many different views/opinions/understandings. Most of them could be totally irrelevant/wrong. Determining what the truth is about historical events is extremely hard if not impossible since we can never truly know and can only make assumptions.

Offline Duster

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2015, 07:24:50 PM »

Shalom /peace good logic ....you said

However if views/opinions/understandings are backed up from Qoran ,how can I disagree with the truth?

...but that is precisely the point I am making.......pls don't take me wrong...>>>i have noted that when your views are properly refuted with evidence ...you simply appear to ignore it.....I still think you are dismissing sincere concerns that brothers and sisters on this forum are sharing with you. You really may want to have a think about it.....

For example...very relevant to this topic....i read a powerful response against your points made in the posts here about why we are tested... http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6186#msg6186

...point by point your view is refuted with evidence ...even others noted it ....yet again you completely dismissed it and once again you have pasted something from the submitters group again on this thread...no different from the viewpoints before..

This is not new...i have noticed others also have problems with your constant sharing of 19er stuff , and constant sharing of Rashad Khalifa's viewpoints...for example even on another forum ....on the free-minds forum someone said the following to you only yesterday !!!!>>>>>>

Quote
I do find your comment to be a little bit rude as well though. Did you read what I wrote here? What do you think of it? Comforting people that I'll be gone soon indirectly is not really the nicest thing, could you instead perhaps contribute more by letting me know what I've said you think is right or wrong?

I like what you've said about the Qur'an and your story of coming to Islam, but I became a little shaky when I saw perhaps a little too much support for the 19 stuff (which I am not denying, except you posted a video that suggested that two verses in the Qur'an, two very nice verses, are additions to the Qur'an in order to prove this 19 thing in every conceivable way, and I feel that is taking 19 over the Qur'an and Allah's promise that Allah adds or substracts, Allah causes to forget, Allah compiles and all that).

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607166.msg361836#msg361836

pls don't take it personally...only mean it in a good way and trying to help...but it is only up to you to simply dismiss it......>>>

I appreciate the efforts made on this forum to keep things really high level and evidence based and not just a hotch potch of different people saying what they want....this is the problem i have with other forums and free-minds...but to keep this forum of high quality i can understand why ......there is tighter control and focus....

Offline good logic

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2015, 07:51:32 PM »
Greetings Duster.

What you have done is show me what others have said. Are you assuming they are right? Or are you sure they are right?

When we face GOD individually ,He will ask us if we have believed His message. Have we checked /investigated/aquired knowledge about Qoran?

We must investigate /be fair/ponder Qoran.

I am trying to follow GOD s law as directed here :42:13, 42:21, 5:48, 45:18.

And His sunna as directed here:  15:13, 17:77,  40:85, 48:23.

Follow only GOD s hadith as directed here: 39:23, 45:6, 68:44.

I also believe in all GOD s messengers  as directed across all Qoran especially here:  25:27-29.

 You and I know what the messenger is going to say on the day of judgement  25:30.

Since there are no intercessors/others responsible  ...etc.I have to be sure I save my own neck. Why would I not search for the truth?  should I accept what others advise,even if they are in agreement with each other, if it is not decreed in Qoran?

Let me hear/see points refuting any views that are not the truth using Qoran Alone.Then I will look at the evidence. So far if you look at what you said to me there are no such points made.

But I thank you for the advice .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2015, 08:01:45 PM »
Shalom / peace goodlogic ....It seems to me that you have obviously not taken anything in..even though it was so sincerely meant ....>>> I have shown you a link in which your points were refuted individually by bro joseph....from the Quran and when it was shown to you ...yous simply dismissed it in favour of 'interpolations' and more 'interpolations'....and yet you talk about Quran.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6186#msg6186

>>>>You appear to completely dismiss it then and even now...It seems to me you have no intention to consider this point with any seriousness so I won't say any more for now....However...i still take issue with your constant 19er philosophy on this forum in the various ways you do it....no hard feelings ......Also...i find it in bad taste that you talk about reading widely....but in the end..you seem to remain restricted to the submitters / 19ers / Rashad Khalifa's philosophies...in the end ....each to their own...>>>