Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?

[samson]

When we face GOD individually ,He will ask us if we have believed His message. Have we checked /investigated/aquired knowledge about Qoran?

You and I know what the messenger is going to say on the day of judgement  25:30.

Since there are no intercessors/others responsible  ...etc.I have to be sure I save my own neck. Why would I not search for the truth?  should I accept what others advise,even if they are in agreement with each other, if it is not decreed in Qoran?

Good Logic,

What do you think God's message is? I get the impression that you are attempting to understand all the verses in the Quran in order to prepare yourself for questioning by God to see if you have understand all of it.

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

You said I was shown from Qoran !
Have you overlooked this post from me?

Greetings Brother Joseph.

Thank you for your post.

Your quote: Therefore given your response, I understand that there is no explicit proof for the position you have posited.

You are entitled to your understanding of course.

However, taking the context of other verses, Qoran  backs up the position I have posted. Why?

1-[ 38:69] and [43:5]clearly indicate  something happened with us.
 We are humans in this life,after the feud and the classification of Angels,other creation(animals..), humans and Jinns.It does not mean we will be "humans" after this life or we were humans before that?( 38:68)
Also how do we explain the two deaths?:

They will say, "Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?"
قالوا رَبَّنا أَمَتَّنَا اثنَتَينِ وَأَحيَيتَنَا اثنَتَينِ فَاعتَرَفنا بِذُنوبِنا فَهَل إِلىٰ خُروجٍ مِن سَبيلٍ

I also stand with the claim Jinn are descendants of Satan: (18:50) and (7:27).

Because our life in this world is a series of tests designed to expose our polytheistic ideas, idol worship is the only unforgivable offence (4:48, 4:116).
 The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views (67:1-2).  Only those who are totally certain about God's absolute authority are redeemed (26:89).
 
This is my understanding.

I have not received an answer refuting two deaths and two lives?   So shall I just ignore this verse? What does ""Our Lord, you have put us to death twice,* and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins!. "mean?

These verses I mention in this post have not been explained to me or have they? Please show me where?

With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.

Thank you brother.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace samson.

I believe we must follow all Qoran. Every word must be taken seriously.

The word of our Lord is complete in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words.

Than you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace goodlogic ....Yes you were shown from the Quran...just read the many statements you made and how they were individually refuted !!! just read them again if you kindly will!!!!

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1325.msg6190#msg6190

It seems you just don't want to accept them and I bet it is the same philosophy that the submitters have regarding this topic..So on one side you are prepared to ignore all the other verses and all your interpolations and statements that were not said explicitly in the Quran and all you have is a narrow string that you can't reconcile the verse of two lives and two deaths???>>>  ...how does that explain / support your position !

[Duster]

Also let me say Goodlogic....there is a big difference with saying that we had existed in some form before our life here and then to make up elaborate stories that you have done in so many of your statements that can be found nowhere in the Quran ....For example you say "We are in this world because we committed a horrendous crime, and this life is our chance to redeem ourselves, denounce our crime, and rejoin God's kingdom. [38:69] .We failed to uphold GOD s authority." ...i mean this is the kind of stuff which you simply make up along with the submitters / Rashad Khalifa? Also I found this>>> .....http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=116.msg301;topicseen#msg301 ...the Quran tells us to stick to those things which are clear....not to make things up without proof....

[samson]

Good Logic,

With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.

I've read Joseph Islam's view on the verse 7:172 regarding our supposed existence before this life.

Sahih International
And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

I don't agree with his view on it and will create a separate thread to discuss my take on it. Maybe that would make more sense to you and some others on this forum or maybe I'll be corrected in my misunderstanding  .

[samson]

[post created by accident]

[samson]

Good Logic,

With all due respect, please explain to me the two deaths and the two lives that Qoran mentions, and I will stand corrected from the view of "why we were created" ?.

Optimist has already written a couple of very good posts which explain the two deaths. Have you read them?

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=865.msg3383#msg3383
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=865.msg3387#msg3387

In short there was no previous life or spiritual state before this life we are living now. We simply did not exist. Verse 7:172 is addressing the prophet Mohammed and his people so that they can't use the excuse that it was their earliest ancestors or their fathers which were idol worshippers and that the Quraish were simply following their traditions.

As to why we are created - the Quran simply says that we were created to worship God, to be vicegerents on Earth and so that God could see which one of us was best in conduct.

I hope the above makes sense.

[Seraphina]

I totally agree with brothers Samson and Duster. As to brother Good logic, I have noticed that he simply ignores the facts that prove him wrong. Some people just can't bear the idea that you can't be always right, and that only God is always right. I've got used to it, it's just the way he is. Don't be mad at me Good logic for expressing myself like this-I can't do anything to change your character. But I can do something to honour the holiness of the Quran: I would kindly ask you that you no longer refer me to the works of someone that proclaimed to have found falsehood inside Quran. If you can't accept the mistakes in their theories, fine, but please don't bring them in your replies to me.
God bless you
Seraphina Rosa

[good logic]

Greetings Seraphina.

No worries sister. I accept your request.
GOD bless you.

samson/Duster.

Thank you both for your replies.

For your information I have read all the posts you linked for me. I appreciate your help.

I have not found a good explanation , because this verse[43:5] is overlooked by many:

أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ

Who is GOD addressing here?
Why?

Who are the "Musrifeen"?  When did they commit this?...

We need to have a look at the whole picture of these verses in Qoran.

But thanks again both of you.

Also brother Duster please allow me to clarify again that I am a believer. I do not belong to any sect.
The values I preach in my posts, I apply them to myself. I hope I have never labelled anyone as only GOD knows the innermost-thoughts of His subjects.
GOD bless you both.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Goodlogic....How does 43:5 even help you? ...this can easily be read as a people that the Quran is talking to who are transgressing bounds in this life....You see what you are doing? >>>>why would this simple verse even be a problem to interpret???....

[good logic]

Thank you Duster.

I understand it differently.

Who is GOD addressing here?

إِنّا جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءٰنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ all people ( Alalameen)

Same in here:

أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ

GOD is also using the past tense.  -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
 GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?

That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[samson]

Thank you Duster.

I understand it differently.

Who is GOD addressing here?

إِنّا جَعَلنٰهُ قُرءٰنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ all people ( Alalameen)

Same in here:

أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ

GOD is also using the past tense.  -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
 GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?

That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Verse 43:5 is referring to the Quraish. God is telling the Quraish that by their idol worshipping they are transgressing their limits. It's not referring to all of mankind. If you read other verses of the Quran you'll find that the Christians and Jews are not being warned in the same way as the Quraish. The Christians are being warned that they can't say that Jesus is the son of God and the Jews are being warned that they need to open up their hearts and stop behaving like the Jews of the past who denied Jesus and the other prophets after Moses. Even after God showed clear miracles at the time of Moses quite a few were reluctant to believe in the proper way which is by working righteousness.

If you read 43:3, it says the Quran is being revealed in Arabic so that the Quraish could understand it. Verses 43:6-8 tells the Quraish that in the past God sent prophets to many nations and they were all mocked and God destroyed them in the end. This is warning the Quraish not to mock the prophet Mohammed and to listen to him seriously.

I feel that many believers/muslims don't read the Quran in the context it was revealed. Many believers forget that this is God the Almighty giving revelation to a man (who had no idea he was a prophet and that God was actually communicating to him) living in a city where the majority of the population was pagan.

Good Logic,

I believe you're over burdening yourself with your interpretation of the Quran. I admire your zeal and passion in understanding every single word of God and your desire in preparing yourself well for the Day of Judgement, I believe God loves people with that kind of passion the most. However I think your energy would be put to much better use by using it to work righteousness rather trying to understand things which are pretty much impossible to verify and even if they were what good will it do? When I say work righteousness I mean helping the poor and needy, mending relationships with people, being forgiving, praying regular, fasting more, helping your neighbours (especially if they are not believers), helping the believing community better understand the Quran, etc, etc. These sort of things benefit a believer far more than disputing over revelations of God.

[Duster]

Thank you Duster.

I understand it differently.

Shalom / peace goodlogic....No disrespect goodlogic....but you are almost making no sense.....By simply saying that you understand differently is not evidence....In my mind..you have no reason or proof for understanding these straight forward verses in the weirdest way you are doing so...and that is the point....>>>By saying you follow God's word but then relying on submitter's ideas or of Rashad khalifa is not going to make you any more credible....sorry but it isn't.

That is also why i think you will never change your view no matter how strong the evidence against your view is given to you..... i have seen this in so many of your posts and discussions.....Don't get me wrong...but there feels like there is something really wrong in what you say when you state that this is your understanding and it is based on God's word.....to me it seems it really isn't..there is no proof behind it apart from guesswork and weird interpretations....Anyway...I can't really add more than what brother samson has said in his last post. He has put it really nicely and with good advice imho!>>>

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

Do we agree that there are no contradictions in Qoran?

Do we agree  that GOD is consistent throughout the Qoran?

On that basis let me explain 43:5 further:
If GOD was talking about this life ,he would not say:" AFANADRIBU ANKUM ADHIKRA SAFHAN" - Shall We just ignore the fact.. Without pointing the exception within few verses for the context to be clear.Why?

Because GOD does ignore some transgressions if one repents in this life .Qoran confirms in many places that GOD in this life will overlook our sins/transgressions if we are sorry and repent!

GOD in 43:5 is talking about our past life, that is why we are all here retaking the "trial"?

GOD will ask us on that day when we are gathered in front of Him about his revelations/words: Did you examine/study/ aquire knowledge about my message/revelation/words or what is it that you have done?

I am simply a student of the Qoran who is still learning about GOD and His revelation.

My advice to all is to ponder/study/go over many many times...the Qoran and be patient with it . GOD is the Teacher of Qoran.
Thank you for the conversation brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.