Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?

[good logic]

Peace samson.

I appreciate what you are saying here;

Good Logic,

I believe you're over burdening yourself with your interpretation of the Quran. I admire your zeal and passion in understanding every single word of God and your desire in preparing yourself well for the Day of Judgement, I believe God loves people with that kind of passion the most. However I think your energy would be put to much better use by using it to work righteousness rather trying to understand things which are pretty much impossible to verify and even if they were what good will it do? When I say work righteousness I mean helping the poor and needy, mending relationships with people, being forgiving, praying regular, fasting more, helping your neighbours (especially if they are not believers), helping the believing community better understand the Quran, etc, etc. These sort of things benefit a believer far more than disputing over revelations of God.


And I agree with you.

Doing is more important. Everyday I try a bit harder than the day before. I guess ,while trusting in GOD and asking for His help, I can only do my best. I know GOD is just and He will be our judge in the end.

Also, we have to search for the truth , some of this task is done by other means like saying/discussing...etc...

GOD bless you and thank you brother.
Peace.

[samson]

GOD in 43:5 is talking about our past life, that is why we are all here retaking the "trial"?

GOD will ask us on that day when we are gathered in front of Him about his revelations/words: Did you examine/study/ aquire knowledge about my message/revelation/words or what is it that you have done?

Let's accept that God is talking about our past life. Then what? Are you saying we need to remember it and lament over it? Dig deeper? How is it going to benefit you on Judgement Day?

God is going to ask those to whom revelation came as to what they did with it. The muslims will be asked how well the followed the Quran, the Christians the Bible the Jews the Torah. It's obvious that you have studied the Quran well. But now what? What's next. I believe that you already know that unless you implement the Quran ie. believe/trust in God and work righteousness then it's of no use.

[good logic]

Peace samson.

 I agree with you. Upholding GOD s instructions and commands in our life is the most  important aim.

However,this thread was a  different topic .
 I would also like to close the discussion on this particular topic.
Thanks to  everyone.

God bless.
Peace.

[Duster]

أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ

GOD is also using the past tense.  -"Shall we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?"
GOD chooses His words carefully and precisely. This is not about this present life, as some would succeed in redeeming themselves .
GOD would have phrased the verse differently if not everyone was involved?

That is my understanding brother. GOD s word is complete in truth and justice.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Shalom / peace good logic .....Will you stop using Rahad Khalifa's translation already? This is wasting everyone's time and it is almost like making Rashad an idol....please please can you STOP doing this on this forum!!!!...all you have done is taken Rashad's translation AGAIN with his footnote "**43:5 This refers to our original sin as detailed in the Introduction and Appendix 7." and continued to argue a baseless position...and kept on arguing the same point over and over again. Its seems you are a follower of Rashad although you claim not to be....

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/noframes/ch43.html

Hardly any other translator translates Rashad's way in the past tense....that is because Rashad has a point to prove ....>>>>

Sahih International: Then should We turn the message away, disregarding you, because you are a transgressing people?

Pickthall: Shall We utterly ignore you because ye are a wanton folk?

Yusuf Ali: Shall We then take away the Message from you and repel (you), for that ye are a people transgressing beyond bounds?

Shakir: What! shall We then turn away the reminder from you altogether because you are an extravagant people?

Muhammad Sarwar: Can We ignore sending you the Quran just because you are a transgressing people?

Mohsin Khan: Shall We then (warn you not and) take away the Reminder (this Quran) from you, because you are a people Musrifun.

Arberry: Shall We turn away the Remembrance from you, for that you are a prodigal people?


>>>>ALL in the present.....referring to people that the Quran was addressing....Its seems you are not going to change your mind..it is pointless making all these big claims that you do because all you ever seem to do on this forum is push Rashad's / 19ers / submitter's views on this forum!...>>>so when you say this is my understanding.....is it not just Rashad's understanding which you follow???>>

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

How do we search for the truth? 

- God invites us to work our hardest in examining all words and following the best words.

 This means that we keep an open eye and heart to new information and sincerely verify it in the light of Quran.,

 We must go through this procedure constantly with every situation that arises in life.

39:17-18:

وَالَّذينَ اجتَنَبُوا الطّٰغوتَ أَن يَعبُدوها وَأَنابوا إِلَى اللَّهِ لَهُمُ البُشرىٰ فَبَشِّر عِبادِ

الَّذينَ يَستَمِعونَ القَولَ فَيَتَّبِعونَ أَحسَنَهُ أُولٰئِكَ الَّذينَ هَدىٰهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُولٰئِكَ هُم أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ
 
Please read your posts and see what you are saying to me? Does each individual has the choice to do  that? Can we choose for others?

Of course  I have to agree with a view . if Qoran backs up that view. I have to go with my own understanding at the time and not someone elses.
In the case of Rashad , I accept what is backed up by Qoran. I reject all others.

Some Muslim scholars in the past have agreed with him, for example:
http://youtu.be/qJ2u4g1Ex4o

However ,unlike some of them, I do not reject because the person does not agree with my old religion/tradition, if Qoran backs it up...

If we restrict people from "free speech/opinions/views/... in a forum(providing they follow the rule of the forum),then we might as well close it or call it questions and answers/my views/...or something that sets our own agenda.

The truth always prevails in the end. We should not "fear" falsehood, it can easily be "shown up".

And yes we can always agree to disagree and move on.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace...There is no proof for Rashad's view from the Quran...yet you keep on pushing it. It's in every translation you make....Its in every disagreement you have on this forum...When you are shown your mistakes........you ignore it...claiming its your understanding......As far as I know this forum is not just about saying what you want or pushing agendas.........Its about evidence based discussions..so please don't use talk about free speech.....if everyone pushed their own agendas here.....This place would be a mess like other forums.....anyhow..No evidence or proof I find in your view or shall I say Rashad's view......and pls don't push his views here quietly in the way that you do......>>

[Seraphina]

Salam/peace to all,
Brother Good logic, would you mind If I asked you a question? would you allow me?

[good logic]

Peace Seraphina.

Are you asking me if you can go ahead and ask any question?

Of course you can ask.

GOD bless you .
Peace.

[Seraphina]

Thank you Good logic,
Now that I was granted permission, I would kindly ask you: Since you always emphasize the importance of following the Quran, and you deem it necessary to follow it per-letter, are you sure that it was well-preserved letter-per-letter, and not manipulated from the hands of men, and that not a single letter was lost during its compilation? Have you got any doubts about this? Because it seems you accept it as a religious source of law, but even though you don't say it, you have doubts whether it was preserved or not.
Please answer my underlined question with simply 'yes i do' or no i don't', without going on long rounds.
Peace to you too, God bless you
Your sister Seraphina

[good logic]

Peace Seraphina.

I have no doubt that Qoran (the original copy) is preserved .

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Seraphina]

Peace Goodlogic,
Haaaa, great. If you're so sure of it, then how can you be so ardent fan of Rashad Khalifa? You claim to take from him only what is supported from Quran. But you ignore the fact that ALL of Khalifa's theories are based upon the fact that two of the verses of the Quran are false, e.g. they are inserted there from human hand. This is how he gave us the 19 theory, and this is the basis of all of his opinions. By giving support to any of his theories, you give support to the claim that Quran contains man-inserted verses. By doing this, you claim that God almighty failed to keep his promise for preserving the Quran from corruption and falsehood. Hear the advice of your sister, get out of 19ers and stop offending God by claiming He's not capable to keep his promise. I don't understand why is it so difficult for you to see/accept that their theories are wrong.
The subject was supposed to be about the Adam and his state before eating the fruit, but we ended up talking about submitters. I'd like to apologize to QM forum moderators and other brothers and sisters.
God bless you,
Seraphina Rosa

[Duster]

I find that goodlogic phrased his wordings very carefully by saying in brackets 'the original copy'......>>>what I think he is saying is that the original copy is preserved as we can still access it ....but only by deleting those two verses first which were inserted by man / satan....!!!.....well my answer to that is how can Allah allow two verses to creep into the main reading of the Quran for nearly 1500 years .....then how is that 'preservation'? how? There is not ONE manuscript that i know of......that doesn't have the two verses in them.....not one....i also don't know of any recitation that omits those two verses......Rashad Khalifa has duped many so that he could make his theory work...a theory that has no support from the Quran....and it just happens that the submitter agendas get pushed on many forums...quietly...
Sorry sis Seraphina if I invaded your post / thread....but had to say what I feel and observe. I mean no disrespect to anyone....>>>Mods - please don't delete these comments as they are very imp!....i suppose this thread could always be split into two topics!!??......>>

[Seraphina]

Please brother Duster, I'm so glad you took time to express yourself, and it's a pleasure to engage in discussion with you. I totally agree with your last post, so I think brother Goodlogic needs some time to reflect about the kind of theories he supports. As for moderators, they know their work perfectly, I trust them fully.
And, this post proved to me that even though we think we know the Scriptures well, the more we study topics treated in them, the more we realise things we didn't know, or simply didn't notice. I think by discussing like this we benefit each other, but others who are searching for answers might benefit as well.

[good logic]

Greetings Seraphina/Duster.

I close my side of the discussion by quoting  some verses from Qoran, we can all ponder? :
3:78
Among them are those who twist their tongues to imitate the scripture, that you may think it is from the scripture, when it is not from the scripture, and they claim that it is from God, when it is not from God. Thus, they utter lies and attribute them to God, knowingly.
وَإِنَّ مِنهُم لَفَريقًا يَلوۥنَ أَلسِنَتَهُم بِالكِتٰبِ لِتَحسَبوهُ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَما هُوَ مِنَ الكِتٰبِ وَيَقولونَ هُوَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَما هُوَ مِن عِندِ اللَّهِ وَيَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الكَذِبَ وَهُم يَعلَمونَ
3:79
Never would a human being whom God blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside God." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.
ما كانَ لِبَشَرٍ أَن يُؤتِيَهُ اللَّهُ الكِتٰبَ وَالحُكمَ وَالنُّبُوَّةَ ثُمَّ يَقولَ لِلنّاسِ كونوا عِبادًا لى مِن دونِ اللَّهِ وَلٰكِن كونوا رَبّٰنِيّـۧنَ بِما كُنتُم تُعَلِّمونَ الكِتٰبَ وَبِما كُنتُم تَدرُسونَ

3:80
Nor would he command you to idolize the angels and the prophets as lords. Would he exhort you to disbelieve after becoming Muslimeen?
وَلا يَأمُرَكُم أَن تَتَّخِذُوا المَلٰئِكَةَ وَالنَّبِيّـۧنَ أَربابًا أَيَأمُرُكُم بِالكُفرِ بَعدَ إِذ أَنتُم مُسلِمونَ

Sorry sister for going off topic also in your thread.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Seraphina]

Well, there is someone who fits this description perfectly. There is someone who tried to twist the Quran with his tongue (3:78) so it would fit his belief that 2 of quranic verses are false. So, he's not guided by God in his teachings, because if he was, he would teach us "according to the Scriptures you preach and the teaching you learn" (3:79). Can you guess who he is? His teachings violate the work of Gabriel in Quran's transmittion and prophet Muhammad in the correctness of preaching it (3:80),(which by the way we can't idolise, but can give credit and respect to their work).
By trying to beat me with these verses, you're beating yourself. How can you not see yet that the more you defend your 19-based theories, the more they crumble?
I'm gonna follow brother Joseph's example in curtailing useless debates, because, thinking better, he's right: once the truth is manifested clearly, there is no use in continuing.
If the pride doesn't let you admit your mistakes, let me tell you that only God never mistakes. And you're not God.
Peace,
Seraphina