Was Adam created mortal?Or he lost immortality after disobeying God?

[good logic]

Greetings Seraphina.

GOD is Almighty,Powerful, Aware of everything everyone does.

If we really believe He is capable of preserving His scripture, why should we worry about those who want to add or takeaway verses from His scripture?

If they add, it will stand out like a sore thumb. If they even attempt to take away He will stop them.

If you believe you have the preserved Qoran,then believe every word of it and best of luck to you with your studies .

It is a personal matter between each individual and GOD.

I believe every word of the Qoran that prophet Muhammed delivered to humanity. I believe GOD. Yes every word of it.

I am absolutely certain I am going to meet my Creator on the day of judgement. I will  answer to Him for me . You will answer for you only. We both need to search for the truth and truly,believe. Who knows what the future holds for both of us?

I pray to  the Lord to guide us both.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

If they add, it will stand out like a sore thumb.

Shalom /peace ... just to say .....if you think that 2 whole verses>>>> 9.128-129 sticks out like 'a sore thumb' as Rashad would have others believe....after some mathematical exercise and using hadith to support the removal of those verses...then I feel you are seriously mistaken....

[Seraphina]

There is no use brother Duster, he pretends he's not seeing and he's not hearing, because what he sees and what he hears doesn't fitt with what he wants to believe. If brother Joseph couldn't convince him in numerous posts, then noone can convince him. As far as I'm concerned, he's free to believe 19er's ideas, I'm ok with it, as long as he doesn't bring them up to me (in the answers to my questions).
Shalom,
Your sister Seraphina

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

When you say Rashad used hadith to support the removal of the two verses do you mean this?:

9:128-129: The Suspects

From an historical point of view, these false verses have been sus-pected for more than 1300 years, as documented in such classical references as Bukhari, Al-Itqaan-i Suyooty, Ibn Kaheer, and others. Some of the findings in these documents indicate that Muhammad’s cousin Ali knew that false verses had been added to the Quran, and he said he was going to do something about it. He actually did something about it. He and his son Hussein fought to remove these false verses from the Quran. They did not fight for power as an-nounced by their enemies who killed them and many others who supported them.

Also, according to these Islamic references, every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplic-ity of witnesses. The only exception was for Verses 9:128 and 129. These verses were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary, one of the late companions of the prophet. When some people questioned this improper exception, someone came up with a Hadith (saying) which stated that "the testimony of Khuzeimah equals the testimony of two men!"

Strangely, the traditional Quran printings indicate that Sura 9 is "Medinan" (revealed in Medina), except the last two verses, which they indicate as being "Meccan." The question is how could these "Meccan" verses be found with Khuzeimah, a late Medinan Muslim, when the universal convention has been to label as "Medinan" all revelations after the prophet’s Hijerah (emigration) from Mecca?!


I use Qoran only. I do not use any outside sources.

I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?

I am just checking what you mean when you say hadith, if you want to answer this query .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?

Shalom / peace ...so suddenly goodlogic ...you are so interested why sources outside the Quran are saying things about certain verses in the Quran? ... and then you say "I use Qoran only. I do not use any outside sources."...what will it take to make you see the immense contradictory statements you come up with??

>>>Who cares who and what is written about verses 9.128-129?>>.......who cares what is written about any verses of the Quran in books written hundred of years later?? why should that matter to any Quran-only person?...HOWEVER ...it matters to those that claim to be Quran-only and are not .....but use 'outside sources' like the ones you quoted to quietly support their own convictions.....

What will make you see??

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

I was asking you what source of hadith did Rashad use. I gave you that example. Is that the one you mean?

I was asking you the question politely.

It is fine if you do not want to answer.

I was also saying,for me GOD has put everything in Qoran. He did not leave anything out of the book, regardless of hadith,history ...etc.

All the answers are in Qoran. GOD has counted the numbers of everything." Wa kulla shayin ahsainahu addada".

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace

Sorry goodlogic.....I find your question, although you ask it very politely .....a little disingenuous brother....pls don't take offence...its just my observation and what I feel...

You see....you actually asked me 2 questions....and given your second question...it seems your first question was rhetorical.....Let me show you how....

You asked:

Question 1
When you say Rashad used hadith to support the removal of the two verses do you mean this?:

Question 2
I just wonder why this has been said about them and not about other verses?

>>>Therefore...your second question accepts the things said in the external sources after your first question as true....in other words...why would you ask question 2 if you didn't think the external content given after your first question was relevant anyway?>>> you must have thought it relevant ...otherwise why would you ask me why so and so wasn't said about other verses?

Anyway ...see for yourself how much 'external sources / hadith' Rashad quotes himself showing it as events that actually happened.....>>>before he starts using the 'physical evidence' and his own cherry picked calculations to make his point...and you know why he made that lean on all those sources? because as brother Joseph and so many have shown...he can't even prove the need to search for a mathematical miracle from the Quran.... thats why his cherry picked, 'physical evidence' is meaningless on its own....

http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix24.html

Bro Joseph - CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY - http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

I left the "submitters"
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598270.0

[Seraphina]

Brother Duster, I don't know if you saw my earlier post, but in case you didn't, please don't get yourself exhausted without need. Goodlogic was shown facts his views are wrong. It's not that he doesn't see he's wrong, it's that he doesn't want to see, because the facts shown to him contradict what he wants to believe. Brother Joseph went through this many times before, if he couldn't convince him, noone can. Shalom

[Duster]

Shalom / peace sister seraphina.....i am sad, but I think you are right....i don't know how clear someone has to be to make it obvious of the weakness of someone's points and you are right bro joseph has often laid out clear arguments but because of personal agendas some just carry on arguing. oh this is my opinion and everyone has a right to an opinion....no...if your opinion is weak and shown to be weak you just should stop promoting it........I just hope bro joseph doesn't ever get fed up of answering such questions...I am always worried about this.....that he might get fed up one day....I know in one thread he said he wanted to maintain standards of discussions with evidence....but when he goes quiet sometimes..i sometimes get worried...but I know he is busy and has so many commitments..It seems that anyone and everyone that has their own agendas just come on forums like these and say what they want and refuse to change their position no matter how strongly it is refuted / challenged...either promoting themselves or other scholars views blindly.....regardless how many times you show them....***Sigh****>>>thanks for replying sis...but you can't help being frustrated some times....>>>

[Seraphina]

You're welcome bro Duster I feel exactly like you. On each and every quiet period of brother Joseph, I can't help it: I miss his posts and his guidance. Then I remember that he has many commitments and a busy schedule. But, I have known him enough to know that he would never give up on us, at least not this way. And then, since I can't do anything else, I pray to God for him (believe it or not, I pray for brother Joseph and forum members every day in my duas). Wherever brother Joseph is, whatever be his condition, may God protect him from all evil and may He bless him with health and strength to face whatever comes in his way. May God be with you, our brother Joseph, we miss you!
Shalom bro Duster, may God bless you too
Your sis Seraphina Rosa

[good logic]

Peace Duster.
Thank you for your post.

I do not take what God says lightly. I have made it my aim in life to find out what is the message. God s message contains a proof ,of that I have no doubt now.

Do you think I ignore evidence? I have to  check and make sure it is true evidence.

For example What is the original Qoran and what happened to that copy?

How do we know that the oldest copy we have is the Qoran that Muhammed received?... Why are there many versions like Hafs,warsh...etc...?

All these questions can now be answered using interlock and God s stamp/signature on His words.

 The Quran carries GOD's mathematical signature,  19 is   the Quran's common denominator.

 This is the deliberate design of Almighty GOD; He has  placed His mathematical signature in our hand. The number of bones in our hand is   19. In mathematics,  1 and  9 are like A and Z in English. They signify "The First and The Last," "The Alpha and Omega." Zero independently has no value. To make sure that we don't think this might be a coincidence, next to our hand, GOD has placed   8 bones in our wrist.   19 is the   8th prime number,  (2,  3,  5,  7, 11, 13, 17, and  19). Prime numbers are only divisible by themselves and number  1.
 The first verse in the Quran is comprised of  19 Arabic letters. This same exact verse is placed on top the first 8 suras. Sura 9 does not have the opening statement. This is the design of the Almighty.

GOD has indeed counted the number of everything. His message is numerically structured.

I have found more evidence with this than with other arguments. I have solid proof that the Qoran I follow is the original Qoran sent by the Lord of the universe.

Of course it is my proof. Others have their evidence and proofs according to their understanding.

Thank you and God bless you.
Peace.

[Duster]

GOD has indeed counted the number of everything. His message is numerically structured.

Shalom / peace....Where does it say that God's message is mathematically structured ? Rashad takes a verse, misinterprets it....look for data to fit the theory and when it doesn't work, he removes two verses. and his followers and others like you call it proof? Can't you see its a test to expose those whose hearts have perversity? Can't you see??

Its no point goodlogic arguing with you...absolutely no point....you will continue to dismiss whatever is shared with you ... your mind is made up....any way as far as your Wars and Hafs copies and differences in the Quran...there has already been a good article shared on this site dealing with it by brother joseph.....http://quransmessage.com/articles/seven%20readings%20FM3.htm

[good logic]

Peace Duster.

Yes I read the links you posted for me before .The following verse is quoted by many :
[Qoran 56:77-80] This is an honorable Quran. In a protected book. None can grasp it except the sincere. A revelation from the Lord of the universe.

However, for centuries the Muslim scholars have been teaching the Muslim masses that by verse 15:9, God means He will protect the Mus-haf of any distortion or changes.
 
We need to look at this verse  also, it clarifies what GOD is preserving:
[Qoran 85:21-22] Indeed, it is a glorious Qoran. In a preserved master tablet.

This means whatever change the people would do to the revealed Qoran, whether done deliberately or not will be exposed and corrected as the original is preserved with God. God, being the Most Merciful , also provided us with a method and a proof to verify the accuracy of the Quran .

 The Mus-hafs that exist today and around the world are not the same as many of them still carry the human errors that were not corrected. They do not match word by word or letter by letter and they are not what God promised to preserve and protect.

Any human written books, including the Mus-hafs are liable to human errors.

GOD has blessed us with a tool to measure and confirm His words. He asked us to use our eyes,ears and brain to verify all information.

GOD s words against men s words, we have the means to verify which is which!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum Br. Goodlogic

Brother, from reading this post, I do have to kindly agree with the other members. I 'm not judging you but just by seeing the things that have been written I don't think you have gotten the message of what the argument really is. I really think you should revisit these articles that Br. Joseph has written.

CODE 19
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

And about the verses you related in your last post I hope this article will be of some help

http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/Do%20I%20Need%20Wudu%20To%20Touch%20the%20Quran.pdf

It briefly explains certain verses you mentioned.

Any book of God is perfect, and makes sense and should be taken seriously. From what I noticed in my life is because of people not taking the religion seriously and if the past was also of the same, then I can realize why there is so many ideas and opinions that have nothing to do with the Quran.

I do think though that anyone who is giving their opinions on a matter should be scrutinized by ANYONE using the Quran and to see if they fall short in anyway. This way it would be easy to distinguish what is right and what is wrong.

And if a opinion about a matter in the Quran is given by a Quranic scholar and it sheds NO tension on any verses and it CONFIRMS other verses with no addition of names, or other information then why not agree on the matter. We have to start becoming united and not more differences.


Brother go over these verses very carefully.

A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
 
The crux of the 19 theory is founded on strength of the following verses:
 
074.026-29
"Soon will I cast him into Hell-fire! (Arabic: saqara) And what will make you realize what hell-fire is? It leaves nothing; it spares nothing. It scorches the mortal"
 
074:030
Over it (Arabic: alayha) are Nineteen.
 
074.031
"And We have set none but angels (Arabic: malaikatan) as Guardians of the Fire (Arabic: ashaba-l-nari); and We have fixed their number (Arabic: iddatahum) only as a trial (Arabic: fitna) for disbelievers (Arabic: kafarau) in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What does God intend by this example / parable?" Thus does God leave to stray whom He pleases and guide whom He pleases: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except Him. And this is no other than a reminder to human beings"


The fixed number is a trial for the disbelievers. The message seems to be clear. Now who are the disbelievers  the ones who believe in this number or the ones who do not believe in this number? Lets find out----> the ones whose herts is a disease and the unbelievers may say"What does God intend by this example / parable?"   Could it be it that the people who need an answer to everything, scientifically or mathematically?

So a person who already believes in the Quran and the protection of the Quran is only from GOD. And that it has reached us today the same way it did to the Prophet. He obviously rejects the code 19 theory. And would not ask about the example.

For it increases the faith of the believers when for example I read this verse I see this as a prophecy that has indeed happened. And people before the Code 19 came out would of never even knew whats going on. Now I realized that God has indeed warned people. And it happened in Our life time right now. This should increase the faith of the believers and that no doubts be left for the people of the book. And God the Most Merciful has indeed reminded us that its been protected by HIM.

Its like a prophecy that would not of been know or even guessed it was a prophecy in the Quran until the time has actually happened.

And the Quran should not only be taken on a personal level. For example. A topic like, divorce, corruption in the land, fornication, inheritance etc.
The Prophet Muhammad did not just leave the Quran in the hands of people to just search for the pages concerning the matter for the individual to just see according to his own intellect what is the requirements.

If two people were getting divorced, I don't think it was expected of them to just search through the pages and see how they can settle there divorce according to what they understand. What if they fall short? Not everyone can make all these calculations and judgements?

What does a man do when he commits fornication, or if he is seen in these actions? He does not just simply go to a friend of his or his dad and tell him to carry out the punishment.

What about inheritance?

What I'm saying is it seems like the Quran was given to the whole nation to live by it as a law and a way of life. That it may be used by judges, lawyers, prosecutors, witnesses, people keeping details and track records and so on.

Obviously it also has guidance to ones religious personal level as well. While giving the freedom of no compulsion in religion

Anyways Bro, I hope you all the best, and from whats been going on in the world today we got to start on agreeing on matters that seem to make sense in our religion from the Quran. When we say we believe in the Quran, I think we should agree with topics that are manifested to be clear. By scholars who remain consistent with their work. And if you cannot disprove an argument then why refuse it. The Quran is a scripture with a message that should be spread. And when there is someone working hard in spreading the message with clear evidence, then there is no need to give other opinions unless its better with evidence. It could lead to confusion. I'm not suggesting to not ask questions. In fact the opposite, so a person can learn the religion from people who know, and once its been made clear and you don't see any contractions then its safe to accept. Why not accept it? Is it not the truth of the Quran that one is trying to follow?

And most of the Book or the foundation of the Quran has been made simply clear. And the rest has been intentionally made for us not to fully understand. We hear and we obey.

003:007
"He it is Who has revealed to you the Scripture wherein are clear revelations (Arabic: Muhkamatun) - They are the substance of the Book, others are unspecific / allegorical (Arabic: Mutashabihaat). But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue that which is unspecific (Arabic: Mutashabihaat) seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation save God. (and) those who are of sound instruction say: We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really take heed"

Peace

[ahmad]

Dear brother Good Logic,

I believe brother Hamzeh has made a very good point. I urge you to consider it carefully.
And I hope that in the future, we can discuss clear matters and avoid subjects that have been exhausted in debates, especially when differences in opinion have been made clear. I believe this is best for everyone.

We all are going through a different journeys to understand the Quran. So let's not make it harder on ourselves.

Peace and good luck to all of us in our pursuits of knowledge.