Basics of Morality in Islam

[Donald Hysa]

Greetings everyone

I  was raised in a non-practicing  muslim family in Albania. I was actually the only one in my family to be  very fascinated with islam so I started reading Quran everyday when I was 13 .Then I heard about the war in Kosovo and Bosnia where thousand of muslims were  slaughtered  just for being muslim. And I though that was the most evil thing I had ever heard.Killing people just because you don't approve their faith.But then I though on the Quran and it says Allah would burn christians for all eternity just for believing in Trinity.And I thought why  was I worshiping Allah but hated the serbs  since  basically both caused harm to people cause they didn't approve their beliefs.

So here are my question and I welcome every opinion:

Why is it ok for God to do things that would be considered evil if done by people? Don't get me wrong I am not saying God is evil  cause  he intentionally causes harm to people he causes cancer to children earthquakes etc. I am pointing  out that if God  does those things so  offten  then why is it so bad for us to do it? Cause we don't have God's power? What if we had God's power would be ok for us to take lives and spread disseases and  torture people with Hell? Does our perception of right and wrong depends on the power and authority  of the one who is commiting the act? As in if you asked someone to sacrifice his child for you you would be considered a bad person but if God does it with Abraham nobody is appalled  by this act?

Is that because God can grant people a vast eternal reward but ordinary people don't?

For example hypotheticaly speaking if  Stalin or Hitler were the only ones who could grant you this vast reward would you worship and love them despite their crimes?  Would you even judge their crimes as crimes?

Thank you 

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Donald,

I note that you are making these comments on other posts too so obviously it is troubling you.

Firstly, you have to see God as a completely separate entity from His creation. He is the Creator, we the created.

He is beyond our comprehension. His power and might surpass all things. You cannot compare humankind to Him as this is illogical. We are not the same species. He was always present and will always be. In His wisdom He created the entire Universe and all that resides within.

Now taking that into mind I don't see why you are taking a like for like approach in comparing what bad/evil deeds humans commit with the punishments that God metes out.

He created us from nothing so is aware of our innermost thoughts. We however are limited in our knowledge of Him. That is why He has sent us scriptures. He tells us exactly why He has created us!
So that He can reward those who do good deeds and worship Him (10.4)

That is so simple to understand. If you can grasp this then you shall see the difference between us and Him. With the scriptures we can understand why God punishes but we will never understand the wisdom behind it because He has foresight! We cannot see into the future . He sees and knows all because He is outside His creation.

A lot of things may seem unjust to you but remember that God leans towards mercy when it comes to His creation. In fact he tells us in the Quran that the rule of Mercy is incumbent upon Him.

Now compare that to us..how fickle we are as a species, do we make it incumbent on us to be merciful? Never. We cannot be absolute in justice or mercy, only our Creator can .

He is not evil, His creation however can be and those that commit evil, despicable acts will be punished by Him.

[Donald Hysa]

Thank you for your reply Truthseeker
If you read my post carefully you will see is not about God's"morals" its about our  own morals our sense of right and wrong .
And I have proven with arguments you have not addressed  that  the concept of absolute morality and absolute concepts of good and evil is
flawed since our judgment if something is good or bad depends on the person or entity  responsible for it.
For example if you are a warlord and you intentionally  kill 1000 children  you are evil and believers are appalled at it and they will hate you .
But if God kills 1000 kids with an earthquake it is not evil and believers  will not be appalled at it and difference is they will love more God instead of hating Him.
The action here is basically the same you take 1000 children into the spirit world
The difference here is authority influence  and power God has the power the influence and therefore the authority  that's why he can do WHATEVER  you can imagine and nothing will be considered wrong people will just assume it was part of his Wisdom.
 
This reminds me of the ex-communist dictator of my country Albania he killed thousands of innocents but still has a lot of fans here cause of his influence  when I explain them  the terrible things he did  they just assume he had a really strong reason for it that it was part of his grand scheme or something.

As a conclusion religious morality is flawed cause it is dictated  from  the higher external authority  and its not part of the individual
therefore if (hypothetically speaking  I know this can't happen) if  Stalin and Hitler  got Allah's power and Might believers would instantly  start loving  and worshiping them and their crimes would count as "divine wisdom" and not crimes at all.


I hope this is clear enough 

[good logic]

Peace Donald Hysa.

Who do you think GOD is?

The examples you are giving are "unbalanced"!!! How can you even compare the Creator to the created?

Do you think "Hitler" or "Stalin" have the "complete knowledge to run a dominion?

Like Truthseeker said,you need to  study Qoran and ponder more. You are too hasty.

You need to understand what is free will? Why can GOD do anything He wants/ chooses and we cannot?

Here is a summary :

You are in control for all the decisions you make:               Free will

GOD is in control of everything :                                           Predestination/Omnipotence.

Free will

Can you choose when and where to be born?

Can you choose  what is to be created?

Can you choose your shape/form/design?

Can you choose and control your organs?

Can you choose immortality? …. Why not?

So what is left for you to choose? Why?

To answer these questions you need to ask one very important question:
Are you qualified/knowledgeable/capable … of making these choices?

For example one cannot just choose to be a “doctor” he/she needs to acquire the skills first!!

So “Free will“  is limited for a very good reason. You find yourself a human being and you make the decisions of how to lead your life according to your situation. You are in control of your life as far as you are concerned.

Predestination

The One qualified to do all the choosing is in total control. He has the “complete knowledge “. We cannot question what He does or why He does it. As far as He is concerned He runs everything.

For example He has chosen not to force anyone to “believe”:

[Qoran 10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?

He is qualified to do whatever He wants.

We need to concentrate on making the right choices with our limited “free will” for a very good reason.

 He has explained all this in his message.

GOD bless you .
Peace.

[Donald Hysa]

Peace Good logic
Your post is not  very related to the subject here if you read it carefully it was mainly about human sense of morality not free will or questioning God or God's nature however I am gonna respond to  the arguments you have presented
I don't think what Go shape God is in fact there is no clear definition of God anywhere. Every believer is free to shape God in his own image
  God has the same moral concepts you have God approves  what you approve and disapproves  what you disapprove God likes people  you likes and dislikes people you don't like.God is a matter of personal tastes after all.

How can the creator be compared to the created?  Well God has many attributes  his creation has .He has love anger (hate) love mercy  he has a sense of judgment like his creation a sense of  justice right and wrong good and evil he has slaves or servants like like a human king he also has a Throne  angels will carry on the Last Day http://quran.com/69/15-21. So Allah(God) is very much alike his creation.

It doesn't matter if Stalin and Hitler  have complete knowledge  to run a dominion.The  probably didn't  even have complete knowledge to run a country given the historical accounts of their rule.But a lot  citizens at that time believed they were perfect that they were all wise and made no mistakes ever ( see cult of Stalinhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_cult_of_personality) cause of their power influence and authority. Look at this hymn dedicated to Stalin " Thank you, Stalin. Thank you because I am joyful. Thank you because I am well. No matter how old I become, I shall never forget how we received Stalin two days ago. Centuries will pass, and the generations still to come will regard us as the happiest of mortals, as the most fortunate of men, because we lived in the century of centuries, because we were privileged to see Stalin, our inspired leader ... Everything belongs to thee, chief of our great country. And when the woman I love presents me with a child the first word it shall utter will be : Stalin ...[13]" It has litlle differences form prayers to God.Also I find it interesting   that your problem with  the idea of Stalin and Hitler  obtaining  God's power  is that they probably don't have complete knowledge not that they were sadistic psychopaths.

My post was not about free will at no point I have pointed out problems with free will.( Cause I know the common responses for that and honestly I am fed up with them) but I see that you have done that for me and your opinion on these problems is something I can't quite understand
" To answer these questions you need to ask one very important question:
Are you qualified/knowledgeable/capable … of making these choices?

For example one cannot just choose to be a “doctor” he/she needs to acquire the skills first!!

So “Free will“  is limited for a very good reason. You find yourself a human being and you make the decisions of how to lead your life according to your situation. You are in control of your life as far as you are concerned."

I simply can nor see how your response is related to the problem you have  pointed out I would like you to elaborate more on that if you don't mind.

Later you go on and say that God doesn't want  to force people to believe in his existence. That is  absurd to me since nothing can force us to believe  in its existence  .We see the sun we see the atom that's why we believe in their existence at no point these  object forced us to believe in them

Thank you for your reply anyway 

[good logic]

Peace Donald Hysa.

I was only pointing to you the difference between what GOD does and what humans do.

I understand I am not here to answer your questions,nor to answer anyone else's questions. Each one of us has to find their own answers after they  search and check.

I appreciate the fact that you are searching.

It is not going to be easy,it requires a lot of hard work and commitment .

I believe GOD s message has the right answers.

Best of luck to you with your search.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Donald Hysa]

good logic
If you are not answering my questions then your post is  an unnecessary  distraction and  I would appreciate it if you avoided
these kind of posts in the future
If God's message has all the right  answers then you would have the answers for me not deviate from topic

Tahnk you

[good logic]

Peace Donald Hysa.

The reason I asked you the question- Do you know who GOD is? is relevant to all the queries you have.

Look what GOD says :

50:16″ We created the human and We know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular veins.”

 
Are you doubting that GOD has your answers?

Please study Qoran with a sincere heart and you will find your answers,hopefully.

I am also  saying ,if you are given answers,you will come back with more questions, if you do not check and make sure.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Donald,

You have concluded that religious morality is flawed. You say:

And I have proven with arguments you have not addressed  that  the concept of absolute morality and absolute concepts of good and evil is flawed since our judgment if something is good or bad depends on the person or entity responsible for it.

Of course it depends on who is doing it. If one was a person and another was God there should be a difference in our judgement if we are believers.

For example if you are a warlord and you intentionally  kill 1000 children  you are evil and believers are appalled at it and they will hate you .
But if God kills 1000 kids with an earthquake it is not evil and believers will not be appalled at it and difference is they will love more God instead of hating Him.

Do you want believers to despise and hate God for the above. Is that why you say religious morality is flawed?

Please let us get straight to the point here, as you have been complaining about this issue a lot on this forum.

[Donald Hysa]

I have no doubt an All Knowing being has my answers Goodlogic but not the Quran   or else you would already have shown them to me.

I think sometimes  you just have to be humble and say "I don't know"

Peace 

[Truth Seeker]

Donald,

I have decided to interject the conversation here regarding you and Good Logic.He entered the discussion as you were giving him an impression that God and humans are the same. He was pointing out to you the clear differences between God and us.

Now in your last post to Good Logic you say:

I have no doubt an All Knowing being has my answers Goodlogic but not the Quran or else you would already have shown them to me.
I think sometimes  you just have to be humble and say "I don't know"

Why do you think it is Good Logic's job to show you answers from the Quran when you have categorically stated here that the Quran does not have your answers?


If that is the case, then why are you bothering everyone else?

[Donald Hysa]

Salam Truthseeker

On the issue of religious morality you  admit that out  judgement on what is good and evil depends on who is committing the act.

Thank you finally a theist who understands that but you have to understand since our judgement if different for different entity  that means there is no absolute division between good   and evil it always depends on who is responsible that means there is no absolute morality do we agree on that?

I am not saying that people should despise God for killing children but if people really had an  strong morality in them  they would still judge God like they judge other people despite his power.I mean is that the best moral message  religion can come up with? "judge people and entities based on their power and authority"? Think about it


About the conversation with good logic you say: "
Why do you think it is Good Logic's job to show you answers from the Quran when you have categorically stated here that the Quran does not have your answers?"

Because good logic categorically states that " God's message has all the answers"  I was just pointing out that if God's message had all the answers good logic would have my answers since he has studied God's message and would not deviate from topic

[good logic]

Peace Donald Hysa.

I am  certain Qoran has all the answers:
][Qoran 16:89]
وَيَومَ نَبعَثُ فى كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ شَهيدًا عَلَيهِم مِن أَنفُسِهِم وَجِئنا بِكَ شَهيدًا عَلىٰ هٰؤُلاءِ وَنَزَّلنا عَلَيكَ الكِتٰبَ تِبيٰنًا لِكُلِّ شَىءٍ وَهُدًى وَرَحمَةً وَبُشرىٰ لِلمُسلِمينَ

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslimeen.


It all depends on what type of questions, what knowledge was acquired and our sincere search /checking/motives....etc.

Some questions arise from our lack of understanding and from wrong perceptions and from the lack of checking the source properly.

Have you drawn your conclusions from looking/pondering Qoran? Have you studied the message in detail?

 GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Donald Hysa]

Dear Good logic

I have  started reading Quran since I was 13 and now I am 20 I have   read it multiple  times  I have it on my phone

Your postion here is that if I  if don't conclude Quran  is divine then I have not been sincere I have not studied carefully enough etc

Imagine how unfair it would be if I was a christian and I told you to read the Bible but after you concluded its not from God but from men  I told you that you were not sincere you have not  studied very carefully etc?
What would you say to such person?

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Donald,

As-salamu alaykum

Please see my responses to your statements / questions in red italics below:

Why is it ok for God to do things that would be considered evil if done by people? Don't get me wrong I am not saying God is evil  cause  he intentionally causes harm to people he causes cancer to children earthquakes etc. I am pointing  out that if God  does those things so  offten  then why is it so bad for us to do it?

With respect, your premise is incorrect as it assumes that God's actions (despite His ‘absolute’ traits) are in some way comparable to human actions. Such a preposterous superficial suggestion could not be further from the truth.

God in His ‘absolute’ knowledge creates a canvas of life to trial humans. With human volition comes responsibility and accountability along with the innate ability to do right and wrong. He makes it clear that there will be perfect justice within those tests.

It is humans that often upset this balance creating the circumstances for mischief, corruption and bloodshed on earth. Even the angels alluded to this (2:30), but God made it clear that there was wider wisdom based on knowledge that He possessed that they did not (2:30). It is humans that create evil (113:2).

God further makes it clear that He allows for respite to a term determined, otherwise if He were to exact retribution in the moment, no  living species would survive (35:45). Furthermore, we can never encompass God's complete knowledge and wisdom. Therefore, ipso facto, we cannot make an opinion on His actions. There are often times when what is perceived to us as 'evil' is nothing but a mercy in disguise. Please see the incidents narrated in verses 18:66-82 of the Quran and humbly ask yourself this:

Could Prophet Moses ever understand the apparent mindless slaughter of a boy (18:74), or the wisdom behind a marred boat (18:71)?

But was God’s plan not firm with wisdom (18:82)?

How could we ever begin to understand God’s wisdom when our own knowledge extends no further than our present? Please consider this carefully.

Thus I submit with respect, that there is no comparison (as you have alluded to) which is a fundamental pretext to your question.


Cause we don't have God's power?

No! Again, the question is loaded with unwarranted pretexts. God makes use of His 'absolute' knowledge and power to create a canvas of life. He does not 'create' evil. Humans create evil (113:2). If God did not recompense good with good, or evil with punishment, then this could be argued as 'injustice' and such injustice could be argued as 'evil'. However, this is certainly not the case and the Quran repeatedly confirms God's 'perfect justice'.

Our Lord creates us out of nothing. He provides for us, He sustains us.  He gives us guidance, He forgives us. He continues to forgive us if we repent sincerely and amend our ways. He multiplies our goods beyond its merits weighing deeds in our favour, but only holds us responsible for the ‘extent’ of our evil deed, nothing more, nothing less. Is this an unfair Lord? I would humbly argue, absolutely not!

006:160
"He that does good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that does evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil (or the like of it Arabic: illa mith'laha) : no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them"


What if we had God's power would be ok for us to take lives and spread disseases and  torture people with Hell?

Once again, an unnecessarily loaded statement built on fault theological perspectives and innate observational limitations.

If we had God's power, knowledge, His perfect justice and authority, then we would not have been 'humans' and would arguably do exactly the same as God has done. After all, if you assume to be God, then why would one act any differently?

It is important to remember that this life is not meant to be infinite. Humans just need to get over this. It remains intentionally temporal within which a canvas of life has been designed to test and trial us. I would humbly urge you read articles [1]-[5] below. The articles are laced with Quranic verses. Corruption and evil is a consequence of what our own hands have earned (42:30).

Furthermore, what we may deem as suffering from our limited knowledge, will undoubtedly have a purpose which we may not always be privy to. I have already cited the example of Prophet Moses with you.

With regards retribution in Hell, would it be ‘just’ and ‘proper’ to leave an ardent sinner and criminal on earth unpunished in the Hereafter? Is that injustice not evil?


Does our perception of right and wrong depends on the power and authority  of the one who is commiting the act?

Not necessarily! The innate ability to know the difference between right / wrong or good / evil is programmed deep within us during our creation. According to the Quran, this is where our sense of morality emanates from. It is innate and designed that way.

091:007-10
"And a soul (Arabic: Nafsin) and Him Who perfected / proportioned it (Arabic: wanafsin wama sawaha). And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it. He is indeed successful who causes it to grow (purifies it), and he is indeed a failure who corrupts it (buries it)"

For example, despite the reward of riches and being brought close to authority, power and societal respect (7:113-114), Pharaoh's magicians preferred death rather than succumb to the invitations of Pharaoh once the truth was manifested to them (7:124-126).

Please read these verses carefully.


As in if you asked someone to sacrifice his child for you you would be considered a bad person but if God does it with Abraham nobody is appalled  by this act? Is that because God can grant people a vast eternal reward but ordinary people don't?

Again, a dubious premise behind your statement and with respect, I urge you to recognise this. There is absolutely no explicit proof that God asked for the sacrifice of Prophet Abraham's son. Please see the post as reference [6] below. If your understanding is potentially flawed, can you see why your question which is built on it may be argued as futile?


For example hypotheticaly speaking if  Stalin or Hitler were the only ones who could grant you this vast reward would you worship and love them despite their crimes?  Would you even judge their crimes as crimes?

I have already provided you the example of Pharaoh's magicians. Despite the promise of reward and respect, they denied Pharaoh's authority accepting the truth that became manifest to them.

Another example is of Prophet Joseph. Despite the guiles of women that were intent on seducing him to lewd acts for no other reason but his outward beauty, he preferred incarceration for numerous years. [7]


I trust that my responses have clarified some of your questions, God willing

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1]  SUFFERING AND ADVERSITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/suffering%20FM3.htm
[2] WE WILL BE TESTED
http://quransmessage.com/articles/tests%20FM3.htm
[3] INDEED TO GOD WE BELONG AND INDEED TO HIM IS OUR RETURN - 'INNA-LILLAHI-WA'INNA-ILAYHI RAJIUN'
http://quransmessage.com/articles/return%20to%20god%20FM3.htm
[4] A PURPOSE TO CREATION - THE POWER OF TRUTH
http://quransmessage.com/articles/creation%20purpose%20FM3.htm
[5] UNDERSTANDING OUR TRIALS - WHY ME?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20trials%20FM3.htm
[6] Why Did God Ask Abraham to Kill His Son?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=178.0
[7] BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396349120502221