A need to go deeper in challenging Post Quranic Traditions

[Zack]

Hello all,

It has been a long time since I have posted, so thought I would touch base again!!

I posted a part of this on another link, however most of it deals with a different topic, the attitude towards the previous scripture.

As I have mentioned in the past, I believe the Qur'an has a unified message with all of the previous scripture. I am surprised that people on this forum do not take that in to account, with this being the most open-minded of all forums in allowing the Quran to speak for itself. Nearly all of the posts of even many of the senior members of this forum seem to have the assumption that the Holy Books of God are at war with one another! Although this is certainly not surprising, as Christians consider the Qur'an as a handbook for warfare. Someone once said, we read the Holy Books not based on rational thinking, but with eyes influenced by centuries of political baggage!

From what I understand, the Qur'an is consistently presenting itself as a reminder of the former books, and a corrective to incorrect interpretation of the former Books by a segment of Christians at the time of Muhammad.

On the other link, there was discussion concerning the second coming of Jesus.  I am not sure why an investigation of whether Jesus is returning is based on the Qur'an anyway, when that revelation is 550 years after Jesus. Clearly the Gospels need to be carefully examined. The same as if questions concerning Moses, the Torah is the primary source. The response of "We don't go there, it is corrupted" is simply an escape and robs the individual of an exciting journey of learning. Again I am surprised how regularly on this forum the easy escape of "The corruption of scripture" answer is given, when that is the most blatant post-Quranic doctrine that was formalised even long after most other traditions challenged by this site....

I think a new approach this area, instead of taking the easy path of sidelining previous scripture, will attract some of the best minds, both within Islam and Christianity, who are on a journey of rediscovering the message of Muhammad, as well as that of Jesus! It is my view that real engagement of topics is best achieved when there is serious engaging and learning from other peoples... ie... "O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another."

In fact, I would go one step further. I have my doubts it is possible to truly understand the Qur'an without a study of Hebrew scripture, the Gospels, and even Church History.

Wasalam
Zack

Wasalam
Zack

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Bro Zack. Glad to know that you are from India I am too from India settled in USA. I just wanted you to know that Quran, the Word of Allah is not dependent on any other book or source. We
need not read Turait or Injeel for anything. Ten Commandments are there in Quran but I doubt if Suhufe Ibraheem is there in any form. Please read Quran wherein you find every thing. Thanks for sharing.

[Zack]

Hello Sadar,

Yes, I read the Qur'an most days. And when we read the Qur'an, it is clear it does not point to itself, nor does the Prophet Muhammad point to himself. From what I understand, the Qur’an exists, amongst other reasons:

To remind us of the previous revelation:QS    38:11
So Arab speakers at the time of Muhammad can understand the previous revelation QS 12:2, QS 43:3-4

I believe the paradigm you present is that of a "Quranist" approach, rather than being Qur'an centric, as Br. Joseph explained in the below link, which I quote....

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/542672849203180

It remains an undisputable fact, that the Quran dedicates a plethora of verses to support Biblical narratives and identities (musaddiqan). It clearly expects its audience to be familiar with Biblical notions and goes out of its way to ratify the general integrity of the Torah and the Books of the prophets (Tanakh) (2:136). It is important to remember that the Quran's purpose is not to rewrite the Bible (5:15) but to confirm and also act as a 'furqan' (25:1). It protects the essence of the message of the previous scriptures, whilst also acting as a discerner of its truth (muhayminan).
Thus the blanket rejection of any source ‘Biblical’ is wholly unsupportable from a Quran's perspective. It serves no other purpose but to precariously dismiss a large portion of the Quran’s verses which contain tremendous wisdom. Such an approach is not only intellectually and academically unwarranted, it can also be argued as disingenuous.

Wasalam
Zack

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Zack I would like to tell about a Sunna/Hadith. Once Omer Bin Khattab told the Prophet that he was reading Taurh( Tauraith) whereupon the prophet told him that even if prophet Moses come back he had to follow Quran & be a member of his Ummah. Moral ? Moses had to follow Quran only.

[Zack]

Bro Zack I would like to tell about a Sunna/Hadith. Once Omer Bin Khattab told the Prophet that he was reading Taurh( Tauraith) whereupon the prophet told him that even if prophet Moses come back he had to follow Quran & be a member of his Ummah. Moral ? Moses had to follow Quran only.

Re your comment above, I am confused. This is www.quransmessage.com , correct?

[Sardar Miyan]

The Ahadith which do not contradict Quran are to be believed and this Hadith strengthen the
belief in Quran therefore we have to believe.

[Zack]

The Ahadith which do not contradict Quran are to be believed and this Hadith strengthen the
belief in Quran therefore we have to believe.

There is one problem..... you have never mentioned the Quran to support what you are presenting.

Regards
Robert

[Sardar Miyan]

Dear Bro I just wanted to present a fact that we have to read & follow the Quran but not other books as Quran is a perfect book. That's all!!!

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Zack,

As-salamu alaykum

Please see my comments on a related thread below:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=523.msg7319#msg7319

Regards,
Joseph

[Zack]

Dear Br. Joseph,

I might respond to your to your comments in this thread (pasting them in) as this part of my discussion does not relate to the return of Jesus. You mentioned:

However, I would kindly add that as far as the Quran being a later document or a revelation ‘550 years after’ this does not by inference preclude the Quran as the primary authoritative source of interpretation for believers. For believers, the author of the Quran (God) is not subject to time.
As I trust that you will appreciate, in contrast to human writings that may suffer in authenticity and authority over the passage of time, a 'later' scripture by a timeless God would arguably be most authoritative and most authentic especially if Gods own commitment to protect its message is accepted (15:9). Please note: The Arabic word 'tukh'funa' comes from the root KHA-FA-YA which carries the meaning of what is unapparent / has become imperceptible / has become dim to the sight / or suppressed, or obscured to the mind. It also carries the meaning of something which has become 'concealed'.

I agree with your response.... However it is more to do with the different functions of the different Holy Books. I understand one of the functions of the Quran with the words "A corrective / Reminder", being consistent with previous revelation. In mentioning 550 years later is not to imply the Quran not being authoritative. However it is correcting issues in a 7th century  Arabian context, including misinterpretation of scripture and even words in manuscripts that would seem to be deliberately mistranslated to support some trinitarian views. Although much of these issues addressed continue to be issues today I am sure.

The reason for returning to the New Testament for discussions on Jesus, returning to the Torah concerning Moses etc. is that their text is generally written as a systematic text of events in that era. Muslims often speak as if everything you need to know about Jesus is in the Quran! How tragic! The Quran is not designed as a systematic story of these events. Besides being a corrective, it is a revelation that is an introductory overview for a people who did not have access to the previous Kitabs in their language.

A part of the problem is that Christians view the Quran as an Arab centric Book, Muslims view the Injil as a Roman centric Book; which is all just the baggage we carry.

Regards

Robert

[Zack]

I meant to say Br Joseph how much we appreciate your articles. They are having a broad impact, a lot more possibly than you realise. At the same time a part of us having a slightly different view on some things and not it being a big issue is the spirit of  the Quran, which was inclusive prior to the Arabisation of Islam...

Keep moving forward in your work and be encouraged!

Wasalam

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Zack,

As-salamu alaykum

Thank you for your kind words, Alhumdolillah.

May God guide us all to the path that is closest to His way (18:24). Thank you also for all your insights / wisdom.

Regards,
Joseph