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Offline Lobotomize94

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The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« on: May 12, 2015, 09:59:30 AM »
The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too. This is consistent with a earth-centered (geocentric) view of the cosmos that places a motionless earth at the center of the universe and all "heavenly bodies" travel around the earth.


Tellingly, the sun's orbit is always mentioned in the context of night and day. This is a huge point here, it leads to the conclusion that it is probable that the author of the Quran believed in a geocentric view of the solar system.

Here is an example: 21:033
"And He is the One who created  the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit

Notice how it puts together the motion of the sun and the moon and implies a relation of that motion with night and the day. I'm curious to know how this is reconciled? It seems to be the achilles heel here showing the author of the Quran clearly implies geocentricism over heliocentricism.

Arguing that God wanted to give something so that it could relate to 7th century Arabs and contradict modern science doesn't entirely work as surely that would make the Quran non-timeless as it contradicts what humans have come to found about the world God created (Heliocentric solar system and not geocentric)

Offline Wakas

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 02:21:24 AM »
Perhaps you might want to first begin with a more accurate rendering of the verse?

And He is the One who created the night and the daytime, and the sun and the moon, each/all in an orbit/rotation floating/swimming/rolling. [21:33]

Word in bold is an Arabic plural, i.e. refers to 3+.

#####

Bold emphasis mine:


Tellingly, the sun's orbit is always mentioned in the context of night and day. This is a huge point here, it leads to the conclusion that it is probable that the author of the Quran believed in a geocentric view of the solar system.

Here is an example: 21:033
"And He is the One who created  the night and the day and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit

Notice how it puts together the motion of the sun and the moon and implies a relation of that motion with night and the day. I'm curious to know how this is reconciled? It seems to be the achilles heel here showing the author of the Quran clearly implies geocentricism over heliocentricism.

Is there a factually incorrect statement in Quran or is it your interpretation you are asking about? Please clarify.

Offline good logic

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 02:27:01 AM »
Peace Lobotomise.

21;33 does not support a Geocentric view of the universe. It is pure assumption and misunderstanding.

Day and night means the earth is "turning" ,seasons means the earth is moving in an orbit just like all the other planets/stars/galaxies...

Where in Qoran do you find support of a Geocentric  view of the universe? Please quote the verse/s.

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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 03:38:39 AM »
Bro Lobotomise says that while the motion of Sun & Moon is mentioned in Quran but not that of Earth.
Then I just want to known as to how do the Day & Night occur?
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Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 01:00:58 AM »
Hello,

I think you may have misunderstood me, the argument is the fact that the Sun and Moon's orbits are almost always mentioned with the movement of night and day means that the author of the Quran was implying the the sun and the moon's orbit is the direct reason why we observe night and day. This is false, the Earth's orbit is the reason we observe night and day. And not once has the Quran mentioned the involvement of Earth's movement. This is telling.

Thanks
Lobotomize94

Offline good logic

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 01:46:36 AM »
Peace Lobotomise.

When the "night and day are mentioned it means also "Earth ". i.e the verse/s is/are talking about earth .

 It is obviously emphasized in the verses that “night and day” also move in an orbit. The reference made to night and day in the Qoran is always related to the Earth’s night and day. In other words, what is actually stated in  these  verses is the fact that Earth also revolves in an orbit just like the sun and moon!

For a moment, think about the movement of the earth in the space. While the earth is revolving around the sun, night and day which always and together exist above the earth also revolve in an orbit around the sun. From this perspective, the verses have an extremely subtle expression.

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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2015, 04:38:27 AM »
Salam Bro Wakas, Bro Lobotomise has given reply to your query therefore please answer so that we may also understand. Thanks
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Offline Lobotomize94

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2015, 07:00:10 AM »
Peace Lobotomise.

When the "night and day are mentioned it means also "Earth ". i.e the verse/s is/are talking about earth .

 It is obviously emphasized in the verses that “night and day” also move in an orbit. The reference made to night and day in the Qoran is always related to the Earth’s night and day. In other words, what is actually stated in  these  verses is the fact that Earth also revolves in an orbit just like the sun and moon!

For a moment, think about the movement of the earth in the space. While the earth is revolving around the sun, night and day which always and together exist above the earth also revolve in an orbit around the sun. From this perspective, the verses have an extremely subtle expression.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Peace, Good Logic.

The problem is: it is not just about this verse. Throughout the Quran, the alternation of night and day is  always associated with the sun and Moon's movement only. This means those verses are implying a geocentric model of the universe!

Now with respect to Quran 21:33, I don't see how it is speaking of the Earth's motion too? The alternation of the night and day has nothing to do with the Earth in Quran 21:33. The problem is you were presupposing the motion of night and day to mean the Earth is moving-and I do not see that connection. Quran 21:33 can be parapharased as saying:

Look at the night and the day along with the sun and moon, they are pursuing a rounded course

The fact that the verse neglected to include the Earth in here is telling. Also the fact that the motion of the sun and moon are put next to the alternation night and the day implies that the author is painting a geocentric picture of the world. Is what I am saying here unreasonable because to me it sounds right?

Here is a GIF showing what actually happens: http://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xsLCxgzMQ3q0zC/giphy.gif

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2015, 09:13:45 AM »
Are the names of Lobotomise and Lobotobmize94 are the same person or different one? Please clarify.
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Offline good logic

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2015, 03:54:25 AM »
Peace Lobotomise.

GOD is talking to us . From our perspective "day and night" is earth s day and night. If the earth was not turning, there will be no day and night for us.

I really do not understand why you think differently, or why you are separating the "day and night" from earth?

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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2015, 04:28:12 AM »
Bro good logic Bro Lobotomise is not disputing the change of Day & Night  but telling why is not mentioned in Quran to the effect that Earth is Revolving around its Axis and also around the sun.
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Offline good logic

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2015, 04:48:45 AM »
Brother Sardar.

That is exactly what GOD is saying.

If the earth was not turning in its axis ,there would not be any day or night.

What else can it mean?

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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2015, 05:30:38 AM »
Bro Good logic, Though Allah describing Three aspects of 1- Day & Night 2- Sun 3- Moon but while telling about Flooting, the Earth is not mentioned alongwith Sun & Moon which is what Lobotomise is telling.
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Offline good logic

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2015, 02:41:43 AM »
Peace Sardar.
Yes I know he does.

So what is your point? Do you agree with him?

The fact remains that GOD means the "earth" when He mentions the "day and night".

Qoran does not support a Geocentric view of the universe, if you think it does ,give the verse/s that support this view.
GOD bless you

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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2015, 04:48:03 AM »
Day & Night means Earth we are telling but Lobotomise says where is Earth? We have to convince him
that Day & Night means Earth. It is clear in Ayah 21:33 No one " Day & Night No Two Sun No Three
Moon. All are segregated without naming "Earth".  Bro Lobotomise has to ponder upon this aspect.
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