The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

[good logic]

Peace Sardar.

Ah1 That is now a completely different thing. Sometimes we have to realise that we cannot convince ,nor are we here to convince anyone.

We all have the same Qoran, yet we understand it in different ways, why?

We have to keep pondering/studying/persevering/...to get our answer.

Some are on various steps of the journey,others  have not /no intention of starting any journey.others....Only GOD knows who is who...

All we can do is give our view/opinion/understanding...  .Then everyone is free to take or leave. They are also untitled to put their point of view .

At the end we can either agree or disagree.

Read all views, take the best and leave the rest.
What god has said /chose to say...is final,we cannot change it or replace it. However we are asked to study it /reason it...all of it, the content and the context!

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace Sardar.

My apology for writing " god" instead of "GOD". in my previous post.( I cannot edit!)

May GOD forgive me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Lobotomise is not convinced with your presrntation but not me . Then why are you addressing me? Tell your points and convince Lobotomise who is not accepting "Day and Night " as Earth. I have
accepted Day & Night means Earth. Please convince Lobotomise. Thsnks

[good logic]

Peace Sardar.

Thank you. My posts are for all those reading this thread.

I understand you.

As I explained earlier I am not here to convince anyone.

GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

[Wakas]

Hello,

I understood you perfectly. Perhaps it is you who did not understand me perfectly.

... the argument is the fact that the Sun and Moon's orbits are almost always mentioned with the movement of night and day means that the author of the Quran was implying the the sun and the moon's orbit is the direct reason why we observe night and day. This is false, the Earth's orbit is the reason we observe night and day. And not once has the Quran mentioned the involvement of Earth's movement. This is telling.

In any case thanks for clarifying it is your own interpretation (the implication you refer to) that is false, and not Quran.

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Lobotomise is not accepting the Quranic phrase of "Day And Night"which means " Earth". Without
mentioning the Earth Allah telling in Quran Day & Night

[Sardar Miyan]

Here is another Ayah about Sun, Moon and Earth's movement but here also Allah mentions Day & Night instead of Earth. But it is clear that all the three are moving without interfering each other
36:40
لَا الشَّمْسُ يَنبَغِي لَهَا أَن تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلَا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ
36:40
Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Irfan has requested me to post his Blog on this Forum
<<21:33: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"

What most of us will tend to ignore in this verse is that are FOUR things (sun, moon, night, and day) mentioned here—not two--that are created by Allah with reference to their "going around/orbiting" motion.  Sun and moon are obvious but what about "night" and "day"? Are they not moving/swimming in orbital motions as well?  Think about it.  The Qur'an says that the formation of night and day is a continuous process (cleaving from each other/racing to—13:2, 32:29).

The Qur'an is saying here that the night and day formation is a continuously changing process (cleaving from each other/racing to catch/passing by) without break (day and night always exist simultaneously in a dynamic way on different parts of the earth because of the “orbital” motion of light and darkness.  So, the verse 21:33 is exceedingly deeper in meaning.  In sum, it says that:

1.        THE EARTH IS ROUND.  How?  Well, because the night and day are ‘orbiting’ in a swimming-like motion

2.        THE EARTH IS MOVING AROUND ITS AXIS?  How?  If the earth were FLAT and STATIONARY, the night and the day would not be continuously ‘orbiting’ around the earth (yes Earth, not sun)—rather, they would be static switching places every six months on the only TWO faces—irrespective of the sun moving around the earth or earth moving around the sun!  Not a reality.  The fact remains that the Night and Day are created out of the axial motion of the earth and the night and the day are always there—‘swimming’ in their own ‘orbits’.  That is possible ONLY and ONLY if the earth were round and the moving on its own axis.

Three need our attention:  First, FOUR orbital motions are mentioned in 21:33, not two.  If there were only two, the Arabic word would be “kullaa or kullahuma” (for duality),---not “kullun” (for plurality—more than two). The word “Kullun” qualifies for more than two objects.  Second, the orbital motion of the images of night and the day would not be ‘orbiting’ if the earth were stationary and flat.

I hope the forgoing explanation answers not only the question that the earth is moving but it is moving on its own axis and that it is basically round (elsewhere the Qur’an says it is oval or egg-shaped).   

 

Here’s another ayah that supports the FOUR orbital motion routines for the sun, moon, night and the day:

36:40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim
along in their orbits. [The sun cannot pull the moon on to itself and the night and the
day cannot lengthen or shorten other than the appointed measure.

[Lobotomize94]

I do apologize, everyone.

But none of the answers given were satisfying nor parsimonious. It seems like an elaborate scheme to save the accuracy of a very clear verse which like others in the Quran give the clear implication that night and day's motion is dependent on the sun and the moon's motion.

One argument mentioned here was that the that night and day orbiting in a swimming-like motion means the earth is spherical. It does not at all. The earth can be flat, and have a night and day orbiting in a swimming-like motion.

Consider the figure below:



Night and day are orbiting in a swimming like motion and the earth is flat in the above picture.

The second argument is that this verse is saying the Earth is moving around its axis because if the earth was flat and stationary, the night and day would not be continuously orbiting around the earth. This is again not a satisfactory answer. In the scenario of the above picture, the earth is stationary and night and day is continuously orbiting around the Earth.

Also Quran 36:40 is yet another example of how the Quran supports the scenario in the above picture (earth is flat and stationary, sun and moon move around the earth and night and day comes as the sun and moon move).

[Quran 36:40] It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim along in their orbits.

^This verse says the sun will not overtake the moon and then it goes on to say that night cannot outrun the day. Why again is the sun and moon mentioned with night and day? The most parsimonious explanation is the Quran is supporting an earth-centered view of the solar system. The sun and moon won't overtake each other so the night and day won't (because night and day are due to the sun and moon's motion) and so on.

Please do take this seriously and with enough intellectual honesty.

If God exists, we would not expect his revelation to be filled with such a severe error.

Again, I do apologize. My intent is gaining the most rational and parsimonious position, not an ad hoc and intellectually dishonest position. I seek only the most intellectually honest view, and it is not favoring Islam nor the Quran, nor theism.

[good logic]

Peace Lobotomise.
I believe the Qoran does mention the earth spinning around its axis and that it revolves around the sun, and that the sun itself moves in its own orbit.

Please check out the following:

First:
 039.005 خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ اللَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى اللَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لأجَلٍ مُسَمًّى أَلا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّارُ

039.005 Khalaqa a(l)ssam[a]w[a]ti wa(a)l-ar[d]a bi(a)l[h]aqqi yukawwiru allayla AAal[a] a(l)nnah[a]ri wayukawwiru a(l)nnah[a]ra AAal[a] allayliwasakhkhara a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman al[a] huwa alAAazeezu alghaff[a]r(u)

 In verse 39.005 above, Allah says Yukawwir (to move in a ball motion, to cause revolve in a circular motion) the night around the day and the day around the night. This is a clear indication of a round earth.
 The second thing to notice is this: a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree. And he made the sun and moon Yajree (Run) for a specific term.

 This is an indication to another Orbit which the sun follows, in other words the sun is in its own orbit too.
 The additional point is that it mentions TWO types of Orbits. A tight orbit referred to by Yukawwir (to revolve/wrap) and Yajree (to run in a circuit).

 Hence 30.005 gives us a spinning day/night in a tight orbit and a sun that runs around a larger circuit. But some would say this does not say whether the revolving earth is rotating around the sun or whether it is the sun that is rotating around the earth .

 Lets examine other verses to see what is revolving around the other.

 091.001 وَالشَّمْسِ وَضُحَاهَا

091.001 Wa(al)shshamsi wa[d]u[ha]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.002 وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا تَلاهَا

091.002 Wa(a)lqamari i[tha] tal[a]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.003 وَالنَّهَارِ إِذَا جَلاهَا
By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
 091.003 Wa(al)nnah[a]ri i[tha] jall[a]h[a]
 ________________________________________
 091.004 وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَاهَا
By the Night as it conceals it;
 091.004 Wa(a)llayli i[tha] yaghsh[a]h[a]

 Verses 3 and 4 say that the Day reveals the Sun and the Night hides it (not the other way round where the sun reveals the day and hides the night) clearly indicating that it is not the sun that is revolving but the earth system that is revolving. The sun is relatively( from the earth point of view) stationary while the spin of the earth is that which hides and reveals the sun and causes the night and day.

 Second proof that the earth is rotating and Is spinning.

 025.045 أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلَّ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَجَعَلَهُ سَاكِنًا ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَا الشَّمْسَ عَلَيْهِ دَلِيلا

025.045 Alam tara il[a] rabbika kayfa madda a(l){thth}illa walaw sh[a]a lajaAAalahu s[a]kinan thumma jaAAaln[a] a(l)shshamsa AAalayhi daleel[a](n)

 Do you not see how your Lord stretched/elongated/prolonged the Shadow, Had he so willed he would have made it stationary and we made the sun its guide/indicator.

 If the earth wasn't (a) Round and (b) spinning around its axis, the shadow would not have been elongated/retracted due to the suns effect.
 Just in case you might think the sun it is revolving around the earth, the verse says 'and he made the sun a guide/indicator to it'. Meaning the sun guides the orbit of the earth not the other way round.

 Without part 1 (the shadow effect) of the verse you could have argued that the earth revolves around the sun but the earth is not spinning.
 Without part 2 of the verse (the underscored part) you could have argued that the earth IS revolving around the sun but is not spinning on its axis.

 The two together give the complete and accurate account of what Science says is happening..


 Just in-case anyone is in doubt as to whether the Sun is in an orbit of its own and whether that orbit is circular or not.

 036.040 لا الشَّمْسُ يَنْبَغِي لَهَا أَنْ تُدْرِكَ الْقَمَرَ وَلا اللَّيْلُ سَابِقُ النَّهَارِ وَكُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

036.040 L[a] a(l)shshamsu yanbaghee lah[a] an tudrika alqamara wal[a] allaylu s[a]biqu a(l)nnah[a]ri wakullun fee falakin yasba[h]oon(a)


 The words  say each (including the sun) swims (asba[h]oon) in its own circular orbit (falak).

Swims implies  orbit and falak (which describes that orbit) implies a round or circular circuit.

GOD bless you.
Peace
 

[Sardar Miyan]

Bro Goodlogic Bro Lobotomies is simply asking instead of directly telling EARTH why Allah is using so many other words?

[Sardar Miyan]

Somewhere I remember to have read that the people of 7th Century might not have been able to understand that the Earth is round.

[Irfan]

I am participating in this forum after a long time.  Someone brought this 'geocentric" issue to my attention. Here is my take on the verse 21:33:

<<<21:33: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres"
What most of us will tend to ignore in this verse is that are FOUR things (sun, moon, night, and day) mentioned here—not two--that are created by Allah with reference to their "going around/orbiting" motion.  Sun and moon are obvious but what about "night" and "day"? Are they not moving/swimming in orbital motions as well?  Think about it.  The Qur'an says that the formation of night and day is a continuous process (cleaving from each other/racing to—13:2, 32:29).
The Qur'an is saying here that the night and day formation is a continuously changing process (cleaving from each other/racing to catch/passing by) without break (day and night always exist simultaneously in a dynamic way on different parts of the earth because of the “orbital” motion of light and darkness.  So, the verse 21:33 is exceedingly deeper in meaning.  In sum, it says that:
1.    THE EARTH IS ROUND, NOT FLAT.  How?  Well, because the Night and the Day are ‘orbiting’ in a swimming-like motion
2.    THE EARTH IS MOVING AROUND THE SUN AND AROUND ITS AXIS.  How?  If the earth were FLAT and STATIONARY, the night and the day would not be continuously ‘orbiting’ around the earth (yes, around the Earth—rather, they would be static switching places every six months on the only TWO faces—irrespective of the sun moving around the earth or earth moving around the sun!  This is not a reality.  The fact remains that the Night and Day are created out of the axial motion of the earth and the night and the day are always there—‘swimming’ in their own ‘orbits’.  That is possible ONLY and ONLY if the earth were round, moving around the Sun AND moving on its own axis.  How else can you have a 24-hour cycle of the day and the night!  If the Sun is moving around the Earth, then the day and night would be a 365-some day cycle!

In sum, the following points need our attention:  First, FOUR orbital motions are mentioned in 21:33, not two.  If there were only two, the Arabic word would be “kullaa or kullohuma” (for duality),---not “kullun” (for plurality—more than two). The word “Kullun” qualifies for more than two objects.  Second, the orbital motion of the images of night and the day would not be ‘orbiting’ if the earth were stationary and flat.
I hope the forgoing explanation answers not only the question that the earth is moving but it is moving on its own axis and that it is basically round.   

Here’s another ayah that supports the FOUR orbital motion routines for the sun, moon, night and the day:
36:40
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor can the night outrun the day. All of them swim
along in their orbits. [The sun cannot pull the moon on to itself and the night and the
day cannot lengthen or shorten other than the appointed measure.

[Sardar Miyan]

In wiew of my explanation of 7th Century people's IQ & Bro Irfan's explanation Bro Lobotomies must have very well understood I suppose.

[Irfan]

IMHO, there is a sound reason why Allah did not mention the planet Earth being in orbital motion in 21:33 or elsewhere:  Geocentrism has been a very sexy idea for many centuries because ‘it made sense to the ordinary seeing eye’.  Imagine Allah telling everyone in the presence of 7th century audience that the Earth is in an orbital motion (just like the Sun and the Moon)!  This would have been an outrageous statement to digest back at the time of the revelation of the Qur’an. The only way, even for a true believer (let alone a Kaafir), would have been to have a total "blind" faith in Allah and his sovereignty---without any rationale--- even though Allah emphasizes the use of human intellect and reasoning.  The exposition of the earthly orbital motion would have turned even some believers away from the Qur'an because no one in the 7th century was seeing the Earth moving!  This would have been a 'crazy' thing to say in that day.  Nevertheless, consider this:  Allah never said in the Qur’an that the Earth is stationary either.  If He would have said that, it would have been an incorrect assertion--an assertion that was perfectly justifiable to the 7th century audience, but totally unjustifiable to a 20th/21st century audience.  So Allah, in His absolute knowledge kept silent about the motion of the Earth, knowing that the time will come that man will know the truth about the Earth's motion.  So here is the truth in our time--the verse 21:33 is ONLY understandable if we assume that:
(1) the planet Earth is round, not flat
(2) it is moving around its own axis AND,
(3) it is moving around the Sun, not the other way round
All this is possible by asserting that there are FOUR orbital motions, not two, in 21:33.
I hope this addresses the concern.