On Fir'ouns body

[Shahmatt]

In Quran 10:92 it is revealed that Fir'oun will be preserved in body as a sign to those after him.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/92/

In popular culture Pharaoh seems to be associated with Ramesses II, whose mummified remains are well preserved, seemingly consistent with what the Quran describes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II

However I get the feeling that Ramesses II may not have been Fir'oun.

Ramesses II is described to have died at aged 90, past his physical prime and arthritic. Whereas Fir'oun appeared to be active, physically pursuing Moses until his demise (though I suppose he could have been carried or driven by horses). It just seems to me that Fir'oun was younger.

Is there anything concrete to suggest that Ramesses II was indeed the Fir'oun described in the Quran?

[Seraphina]

Assalamu alaykum Shahmatt,
I'm so glad you asked this question because this is a subject I'm very curious about. In my opinion we would find the Pharaoh of the time of Moses by finding out more about his queen. Quran tells us that his queen was put to death because she accepted the God of Moses. As far as I know Ramzes II's wife was never mentioned as being executed. If someday a discovery would be made about an egyptian queen who was put to torture and death from her husband the Pharaoh, than that would be the royal couple from the time of Moses. But to my knowledge, no such discovery has been made to this day.
Let's see what brother Joseph and others have to say,
Your sister Seraphina ☺

[good logic]

Peace Seraphina.

I am curious to know the verse/s from Qoran that confirm/imply that the wife of Pharoah was put to death because she believed in the GOD of Moses?

To my knowledge, this stems from secondary sources and not from Qoran? I might be wrong though!

This verse that talks about her-“And GOD has set forth an example for those who believe: the wife of Fir’awn (Pharaoh), when she said: ‘My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir’awn (Pharaoh) and his work, and save me from the people who are Zaalimoon (polytheists, wrongdoers and disbelievers in GOD)’”- does not imply to me that she was put to death. Are there other verse/s that you could quote to clarify that?

Thank you in advance.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam all, here is the story of Firawun whose body was found & examined by one of the French Doctors Maurice Bucaille & declared that Firawun had died of drowning. This doctor accepted Islam
thereafter. The narration is as follows:---

A French Doctor who helped in
checking the Mummy of Pharaoh
Merneptah writes that Loret in
1898 transported the Mummy to
Cairo. Elliot Smith removed the
wrrapings in July 1907 and gave
detailed description of body in
his Book Royal Mummies in1912
In June 1975 the authorities have
allowed Dr Maurice Bucaille of
France to examine the parts of
Pharaoh' body who declared that
Pharaoh had died of drowning
which testifies Quranic narration
that he died while chasing Prophet Moses & his followers.

[Sleepysoul]

^ Interesting, will look more into that.

[Shahmatt]

In the Wikipedia article the following is also given, and I quote:

"In 1974 Egyptologists visiting his tomb noticed that the mummy's condition was rapidly deteriorating and flew it to Paris for examination." and
"In Paris, fungus was found attacking Ramesses's mummy..."

It would seem that the body is prone to deteriorate.

This would seem inconsistent with 10:92 in which it is suggested that Pharoah's body would be preserved indefinitely.

Also the inset photo of Ramesses II suggests a body preserved in a fashion typical of what could be expected of a mummified king. I mean it does not seem any different to the preserved bodies of other Egyptian leaders or leaders of other nations where mummification was practiced. See for e.g. inset images in here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy#Egyptian_mummies

I feel that the preservation indicated by the Quran would suggest an appearance that is distinct, in order that it compels as a sign.

On this basis it would seem to me that Ramesses II was not the Quran's Pharoah.

[Sardar Miyan]

Finally let Bro Joseph Islam express his learned opinion on this topic.Thanks

[Joseph Islam]

Dear All,

As-salamu alaykum

In my humble view, to truly appreciate the extent of what the Quran is informing us, one must be willing to completely clear their minds of anything they have learnt, comments from critics or Muslims attempting to use events such as these to prove the Quran's Divine origins.

Once our minds are absolutely cleared, only then can we understand the extent of what the Quran informs us:

After narrating the fact that the drowning overtook Pharaoh (adhrakahu'l-gharaqu) after which he believed (too late), the Quran states:

010:092
"So today (fal-yawm) We will save you in your body that you may be a sign to those that succeed you. And indeed many among mankind are heedless of Our signs"

The following points can be gleaned from the Quranic data:

• A clear indication that Pharaoh drowned.
• A clear indication that 'his body' was saved after he had most likely lost his life by drowning.
• A clear indication that the saving of his body 'that day' (So today - fal-yawm) would be a sign for those that came after him, most likely a reference to the following generations of the Children of Israel. This is also supported by the following verse 10:93 that immediately refers to the Children of Israel that were settled after his death in Egypt [1]. This proof could be present for the immediate generations to avoid any doubts to Pharaoh's fate and what God had done for the Children of Israel. The Quran provides many examples of how fickle the people of Prophet Moses could be at times, so providing such proof to quell any doubts would not be remarkable.

Please note that at no point does the Quran state categorically that his body was saved for all of humanity to identify till the Day of Judgement, albeit it does not dismiss it either (from an interpretation perspective). It is somewhat noteworthy that there have been long periods where the bodies of many Pharaohs have lain undiscovered and this verse could be argued by some as falsified, if Pharaoh's body was not clearly identifiable to all generations from the moment he died till today. However, this too is not without contention.

If we simply accept the Quran at its word and appreciate the 'extent' to which the Quran provides us knowledge, a lot of theological / interpretative difficulties and controversies would simply disappear.

I hope this helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] EXODUS OF PROPHET MOSES'S (pbuh) PEOPLE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/exodus%20of%20moses's%20people%20FM3.htm

[Shahmatt]

Many thanks for the clarifying response!

[Irfan]

Salam all,

I think the verse 10:92 is implicit in purport that the dead body of the Pharaoh was most likely discovered soon after his drowning because the part of the verse that says "litakoona liman khalfaka ayatan" (so that it becomes a sign for those who come after you), but, are we all not included in this part of the verse?  In my humble view this part could equally imply the body's preserved status even today and beyond because human race continues coming "after" Pharaoh's death . I really see no warrant in this verse to draw the conclusion that it was only meant for those who came immediately after him.  God mentions this as a "sign" and He means it .  After all, how will today's scientists believe in the veracity of this particular sign of Qur'an if they could not be convinced of God's "signs" in general.
Let's think about today:  The scientists of today are thinking about bringing the 55-million year old 'dead-and-reduced-to-dusty-skeleton' dinosaurs back to life.  They believe it's at is least 'theoretically' possible through the remarkable advancement of genetics-based cloning technologies. I wonder why a thorough DNA genomic analysis of the ancient Pharaohs body has not been (if it has not been) genetically carried out. DNA should put some sort of a time stamp on the body as it does in all other instances of of genomic analyses. Of course, I realize that time stamp may not be totally conclusive but other evidences can be explored, collected, and analyzed.  At the end of the day the Qur'an says that Pharaoh's body is "preserved/saved from ruin" (nunajjayka).
My two cents anyway.  God knows best. Thanks

[Joseph Islam]

As-salamu alaykum dear readers,

I feel it is important to remember that there has never been consensus as to the exact identity of the Pharaoh of the Exodus and it is quite likely, that this question may arguably never be resolved. There have been popular suggestions but these are not without academic contention. There are many Pharaohs whose bodies have been preserved and as some of the posts on this thread have already intimated, suggestions (even academic suggestions) may give rise to further questions / problems.

However as I have humbly shared, the Quran provides extent and I have provided a non-committal response citing a possibility / likelihood and suggested a reason why:

...most likely a reference to the following generations of the Children of Israel. This is also supported by the following verse 10:93 that immediately refers to the Children of Israel that were settled after his death in Egypt [1]. This proof could be present for the immediate generations to avoid any doubts to Pharaoh's fate and what God had done for the Children of Israel. The Quran provides many examples of how fickle the people of Prophet Moses could be at times, so providing such proof to quell any doubts would not be remarkable.

It has been quite the sine qua non of the arguments of recent Muslim clerics of the past few decades to provide scientific / archaeological support to Quranic verses of its Divine origins. In my humble view, although God's signs abound in His creation, I feel this was never the real intention of the Quran to prove its Divine origins. [1] Rather, it was the solid arguments it presented [2], [3].

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES IN THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/science%20miracles%20FM3.htm
[2] Fingerprints of Authenticity   
http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/216314685172333
[3] Fingerprints of Authenticity (Follow-up)
http://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/217054775098324

[Irfan]

Salam brother Joseph,
I have a related question that may clarify our understanding of 10:92  a bit better: Is it a fact that the dead bodies of several the ancient Egyptians kings/pharaohs and others have only been discovered after the revelation of the Qur'an? If that is a fact - and I do not know if it is - then, I find it quite remarkable that the God talks about "saving the body as a sign for those who follow (which I understand as 'following generations')" for one of the Egyptian kings that is mentioned specifically in the Scriptures - the Pharaoh of Prophet Moses' time, when no evidence of any such discovery was forthcoming or even expected. We all know that God promised in 10:92 that He will make it a sign for "whoever come after the Pharaoh". So my understanding remains the same as I expressed earlier that the immediate successors of the Pharaoh are not the only ones that "come after" but that includes all generations till the DOJ.  The body, I believe, has always been there -  in the tomb ever since the drowning event - so the sign have always been there.  Now, the man of today or of the latest few centuries will not be convinced unless they actually see the 'sign'.  So I am not surprised at all that an archaeologist/expert fount at least one of the dead bodies of pharaohs that shows signs of death by drowning! We may need some more support and evidence - and I believe the DNA evidence would be of immense help in this regard.  Now-a-days, the emerging technologies may allow us to get closer to the Qur'anic 'sign'. It is also possible the real body has yet to be discovered - and if that's the case, that will happen, God-willing - if it has not already happened.
I hope I am making sense.  God bless.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Brother Irfan,

Wa alaikum assalam

So my understanding remains the same as I expressed earlier that the immediate successors of the Pharaoh are not the only ones that "come after" but that includes all generations till the DOJ. 

I do not disagree with this dear brother and I think that even though I have shared 'an extent' as to what I feel is the immediate purport of the Quranic verse which implies the preservation of the body for the immediate successive generations (I am assuming the body was subsequently recovered and then embalmed / mummified), this does not preclude any interpretation that this may also remain a sign for further generations till the Day of Judgement. After all, despite many nations and people having had their time on earth and been wiped out, the Children of Israel still remain with strong traditions in tact and arguably will remain, till the end of days. This sign could also hold true for other nations / people till the Day of Judgement.

As I mentioned, some could contend however, as to why there have been long periods without the Pharaoh's body available (notwithstanding the possibility that ancient Arabia may have been familiar with ancient Thebes and the location of the Valley of the Kings in Egypt). But again, I do agree and admit that this too is not without academic contention as it could easily be argued that this in itself does necessarily make the verse false. Admittedly, the Quran even attests to lost artefacts being discovered / found by later generations as a sign by God (2:248), so an interpretation which captures a body of an ancient king being discovered for / by future generations as a sign would not be fantastic.

We may need some more support and evidence - and I believe the DNA evidence would be of immense help in this regard.  Now-a-days, the emerging technologies may allow us to get closer to the Qur'anic 'sign'. It is also possible the real body has yet to be discovered - and if that's the case, that will happen, God-willing - if it has not already happened.

I do not necessarily disagree with this.

I hope this clarifies from my humble perspective, God willing and thank you for your respected input as always.

Regards,
Joseph

[Star]

I don't think the finding of this body is a coincidence. There are many "Quranic Miracle Rebuttals" online that say everything the Quran has prophecied and has come true is a coincidence, but that seems like a bit too many "coincidences" to me. That thing about the Romans being defeated in 3-9 years? And "the moon has split" prophecy (36 kg of moon rocks were transported to earth when they went to the moon, so the moon really did "split"). And now this Pharoah thing. Somehow, I have a very hard time believing all these are coincidences.

On a funny note, the Pharoah had natural red hair, apparently. Weird. I thought since he was a villain, he'd have slicked black hair in a ponytail or some such thing.

Anyway, I think most of these "miracles" are not necessary miracles alone, but when  you take into account every single Quranic prophecy and proof and how it's all turned out to be true, it gets kind of hard to deny that the Quran is on to something legitimate.

Also, Muhammad didn't really know anything. He was ILLITERATE. And then, out of nowhere, he starts reciting elaborate poetry, bringing forth hundreds of pages of Arabic calligraphy, making prophecies, and talking about the origin of the universe and perfectly rhymed Arabic. If a human wrote the Quran (which they didn't), they must have been psychic, a world traveler, a poet, a mathematical genius (although 19 code is nonsense), a lawyer, an explorer, a scientific genius, and the greatest liar and cheat human history has ever known.

So. Muhammad definitely did not write the Quran. OBVIOUSLY.

But can God really do ANYTHING? Like, if you somehow gave him two pieces of paper with exactly perfect copies of a picture, down to the last atom, and there was absolutely no difference between the pictures, do you think God could somehow find a difference?

OK, I'm rambling off-topic. Sorry.

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

You made several statements in your comment which I would like to address. I would first like to address the following statement is which state that the prophet Muhammad was 'illiterate.' Brother Joseph Islam touches on and clarifies this oft-made claim in the following article:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/was%20the%20prophet%20muhammad%20really%20illiterate%20FM3.htm

You also said the following:

"Muhammad definitely did not write the Quran."

I'm not sure which point you're trying to make with the above statement. Are you/were you making the point that the Quran was not the word of Muhammad but rather (was) the word of Allah? If that's the point you were trying to make, then I fully concur with you. Or were you making the point that the Quran wasn't written down by the prophet himself? If that's the point you were making, than I would have to respectfully disagree with you. And again, brother Joseph Islam touches on this issue and makes a point contrary to it in the following article:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Now unto the question you asked at the end of your comment. You asked:

"But can God really do ANYTHING? Like, if you somehow gave him two pieces of paper with exactly perfect copies of a picture, down to the last atom, and there was absolutely no difference between the pictures, do you think God could somehow find a difference?"

Well, if the image on both pieces of paper are the exact same copy down to the last atom, then what difference would there be for God to find? Though all things are made of atoms, and all atoms are made of the same three basic particles, by no means are they (all atoms) the same; therefore God would be able to find the difference between the two.