How many earths?

[Irfan]

Salamun alaikum all:

"Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge" - 65:12 (Y. Ali) 
This verse is mostly explained  by asserting that there are as many earths as there are heavens. However, I am not aware of any verse of the Qur'an where the plural of the word "ardh" (araadh-iy). It is noted that whenever the combination of heavens and earth is mentioned in the Qur'an, it is always the plural form of heaven (samawaati) but a singular form of earth is used. So, over 300 times in the Qur'an we see "heavens and the earth" , not "heavens and the earths".  That being the case, should we still insist on trranslation of the phrase "wa min al-ardhi mithlahunna") as "seven earths"? Or, is there an alternative explanation of this verse (65:12)?

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam brother Irfan,

I personally don't read 'saba' in this context as literally 'seven' but more denoting multiplicity as argued in the article [1] below.

My humble view on this is that the main reference point of the listener of the Quran / to whom the Quran is revealed / the primary audience, is the land they stand on and forms part of their immediate world (hence mostly 'ard' referenced denoting planet earth) and the heavens that they can comprehend around them, particularly in the night sky (hence reference to the heavens).

However in verse 65:12, the multiplicity of the heavens is given clear analogy and alikeness in multiplicity when it comes to 'other lands', possibly referring to other habitable planets arguably teeming with life within the entirety of the wider Universe. The latter sentiment is also arguably supported by verse 42:29 and as I have humbly discussed in the following article [2] below.

I trust that clarifies from my humble perspective.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] ARE THERE SEVEN HEAVENS OR SEVERAL HEAVENS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20there%20seven%20heavens%20or%20several%20heavens%20FM3.htm
[2] DO ALIENS EXIST?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/do%20aliens%20exist%20FM3.htm

[Imran Faruqui]

Thanks for this clarification on 'multiplicity' brother Joseph. Makes a lot of sense, especially when one considers the known structure of our universe; and the theoretical concept known as 'multiverses.'

This will also help me on my own work on the Qur'an and the cosmos.

With regards,

Imran

[Irfan]

Salam, brother Joseph:
I completely agree with you regarding the significance of the number 7 (or even 70, or 100 as they appear in the Qur'an).  I have always taken this number as meaning "several or many (indefinite)".  However, when the word “saba’a” is translated into non-Arabic language, it is usually translated as "seven", its meaning is then left to the readers to decide what they make of it. The main point of the question was why Allah uses the singular for "ardh" everywhere.
I believe the Qur'an is for all times and not restricted to its primary audience. Allah would not hide the truth from anyone regardless of the time frame. I am aware of 42:29 (and some other verses) and my understanding of that verse is not very different from yours, in that, there is certainly life out there (I take the word "daabbah" as a "living entity" in general and not necessarily as land animals or creeping/walking animals). However, I believe that other planets may not have exactly the same living conditions as we have on this earth (e.g., nucleic acids/enzymes or proteins and other chemicals in the same proportion, etc).  So, in my humble understanding, while those planets/heavenly bodies are indeed a part of the "samawaatt” , they may not be exactly called "earth/s" (in regard to its specific chemical and physical composition).
Now I do realize that if my understanding is correct (which I am not sure it is---hence the inquiry), then how do I understand “mithlahunna”  (like them--heavens) in 65:12.  In this verse, the sense of “similar number” has always been implied but not explicitly mentioned. I tend to ask myself the question - could the phrase “mithlahunna” in this verse mean “Just as God has created seven heavens, He has created the earth also/similarly/in a similar fashion”. Another way out of this difficulty may be to say that the word “ardh” may be both singular and plural in “classic Arabic of the 7th century”---that’s pure speculation, though.
So, apparently, the question is still there—why did Allah use the word “ardh” in a singular form in over 300 hundred times. I ask this because I don’t think anyone in the 7th would have objected to Allah telling them unambiguously about the “seven heavens and seven earths”.  The verse 42:29 is clear, as you have rightly pointed out, that there is life in the 'samawaat'.  Other verses also tend to support this notion (19:93-96, for example). In fact, some of the ‘intelligent beings’ may be even superior to us in the Divine design, as per 17:70:
17:70 Verily We have honored the children of Adam. We carry them on the land and the sea, and have made provision of good things for them, and have preferred them above many of those whom We created with a marked preferment.
Another noteworthy point can be made from the famous verse 21:30. This verse that describes how the “Heavens and the earth” were created in a big cosmic event, also treats the “heavens and the earth” separately as part of this cleaving event.
These are not the views that I could ‘vouch for’ and put a seal of confidence on. Nevertheless, I do think that this issue may require further reflection.  Thanks.

[good logic]

Peace Irfan.

May I add another point of view?

Now I believe life is only possible on Earth!!! Why?

Because so far we have failed to find life being possible anywhere else ( from what little of the planets we have explored/studied....).

Some could argue,may be there are other planets that could offer the same form of life as earth out there in our universe?

I say Qoran implies the opposite! How?

GOD informs us that he created the "Samawat and the Earth" in six days(periods...), No mention of any other planet,only "Earth" even though many other planets exist.

Then the big chunk of the six periods (4 days/periods to be exact) is spent creating earth with all its materials that make life possible on it for us humans.

Now coming to (65:12) the clue to me is " Yatanazzalu al amru baynahunna...,litahlamu anna allaha ala kulli chaiin kadir"

I.e that you know... Is GOD implying there are other planets in our universe that are identical to our earth,however they lack the main thing which is "to support life for us". Science will one day come to realise that GOD created only our earth specifically with life for our trial, even though the universe that goes with it is a symbol of GOD s power to show us HIS greatness and to confirm to us that His message to us is the truth.

I agree with this view :
God created six other planets that are identical to our Earth in our universe, although there is life only on our planet. Thus, the evolutionists will be shown  that life did not just ``evolve'' on the planet because of its particular circumstances. GOD created it as well as all the universe for the sole purpose of our trial.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

Peace Good Logic,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, I trust that you will respectfully allow me to share once again, my strong disagreements with your views. [1]

My comments are respectfully shared in blue italics


"Now I believe life is only possible on Earth!!! Why? Because so far we have failed to find life being possible anywhere else ( from what little of the planets we have explored/studied....)."

This is a fantastic suggestion even though you have intimated that our exploration is extremely limited. Just because we haven’t explored every corner of the Universe (arguably impossible given the extent) and found life, this does not mean that life does not exist. Verse 42:29 is explicit and both brother Irfan and I (as well as possibly others) have accepted it at its word along with other inferences the Quran alludes to.

"Some could argue,may be there are other planets that could offer the same form of life as earth out there in our universe? I say Qoran implies the opposite! How?
GOD informs us that he created the "Samawat and the Earth" in six days(periods...), No mention of any other planet,only "Earth" even though many other planets exist."

The Quran was revealed to earthly creatures. That is the reference point. God has used many persuasive argument techniques to enlighten humans of their surroundings and His creation, particularly those they can relate to. It also appears that you have made an 'argument from silence' (argumentum ex silentio) which is a well recognised informal fallacy.

"Then the big chunk of the six periods (4 days/periods to be exact) is spent creating earth with all its materials that make life possible on it for us humans."

This does not preclude the possible fact that the same ‘4 periods’ were not used to create other habitable environments in other parts of the Universe. This could quite easily occur simultaneously [2]. Furthermore, it is an unnecessarily restrictive interpretation to infer a ‘habitable’ environment purely from the lens of humans. Even on planet Earth and deep within the depths of the sea there are extreme environments that would not be ‘habitable’ for humans but life arguably thrives there. Simply, life is adapted to cater for its surroundings. So what may be deemed as ‘poisonous’ / inhabitable for humans may have life created to thrive in that environment whether it is planet Earth or arguably, elsewhere in the Universe.

"Now coming to (65:12) the clue to me is " Yatanazzalu al amru baynahunna...,litahlamu anna allaha ala kulli chaiin kadir"

I.e that you know... Is GOD implying there are other planets in our universe that are identical to our earth,however they lack the main thing which is "to support life for us"."
 
Once again respectfully, to support who? It appears once again, this is an extremely restrictive human-centric interpretation.

"Science will one day come to realise that GOD created only our earth specifically with life for our trial, even though the universe that goes with it is a symbol of GOD s power to show us HIS greatness and to confirm to us that His message to us is the truth."

You have now appeared to have presented your conclusion as ‘fact’ without any apparent warrant. Please see inductive fallacy.

I agree with this view :

"God created six other planets that are identical to our Earth in our universe, although there is life only on our planet. Thus, the evolutionists will be shown  that life did not just ``evolve'' on the planet because of its particular circumstances. GOD created it as well as all the universe for the sole purpose of our trial."

With respect, there is absolutely no conclusive support for this. Also it does not surprise me that you have quoted Dr Rashad Khalifa's view [3] as this theme generally appears to be found in the gist of your arguments and subsequent posts. I understand that I may not be able to convince you to see otherwise (and it is not my duty to persuade you of course). I do understand that you possibly see Dr Rashad Khalifa as the messenger of the covenant / an authority by Divine decree and that is indeed your prerogative. It does appear that the majority (if not all) of your arguments are geared around Rashad Khalifa's views. However, my comments are primarily shared for the benefit of other readers.

With respect as always. Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Good Logic - QM Forum member,  http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.msg6773#msg6773
[2] MY ILLUSTRATION - CREATION OF THE UNIVERSE IN SIX PERIODS. An illustration of the creation of the Heavens and the Earth in six periods with verse references: http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/six%20periods/six%20periods%20FM2.htm
[3] KHALIFA, R.  Quran - The Final Testament: Authorized English Version of the Original, Published by the United Community of Submitters, Page 2637, See footnote *65:12

[good logic]

Peace Joseph.

Thank you for your reply.

Please allow me to clarify for you and others that my views/opinions/arguments... are geared around one source only " GOD s word", especially Qoran.

I take what is best from the rest,after using Qoran as a guide/check.  For example the " 4 days of earth creation" is pecific to earth alone according to Qoran,  "Ard"in Qoran refers to our Earth only.

You say:
This does not preclude the possible fact that the same ‘4 periods’ were not used to create other habitable environments in other parts of the Universe. This could quite easily occur simultaneously [2]. Furthermore, it is an unnecessarily restrictive interpretation to infer a ‘habitable’ environment purely from the lens of humans.

Is this backed up by Qoran?

And of course when you say:

However, my comments are primarily shared for the benefit of other readers.

I agree and so are mine.

At the end ,both my views,yours and others are all opinions that need checking/analysing/confirming by each reader ,then ,they can take or leave as their understanding /logic dictates .
For me Qoran is the most important criteria /measure. Science and history follow next.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

You say:
This does not preclude the possible fact that the same ‘4 periods’ were not used to create other habitable environments in other parts of the Universe. This could quite easily occur simultaneously [2]. Furthermore, it is an unnecessarily restrictive interpretation to infer a ‘habitable’ environment purely from the lens of humans.

Is this backed up by Qoran?

Peace good logic,

I think it is wholly unjustified that you ask me to back up something which the Quran does not implicitly deny. Respectfully, it is you that has presented a limiting interpretation which the Quran does not support and when a plausible alternative is presented, you appear to be unduly shifting the burden of proof. Please see fallacy 'Onus Probandi' (Shifting the burden of proof).

Furthermore, I have clearly stated an explicit verse 42:29 along with an illustration which you seem to have completely ignored.

Once again and respectfully, I do not want to engage in an unnecessary laboured discussion with you as there have been plenty of those [1]. Furthermore, this would not be conducive and given my own time restraints, it is not something I can sustain.

Therefore, please accept my comment as the last to you on this matter.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] Good Logic - QM Forum member,  http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.msg6773#msg6773

[good logic]

Peace Joseph.
Thank you.
I respect your choice.

By the way, I agree with your illustration, and I also agree with you on (42:29) apart  may be what "dabah" can mean.

I also do not expect an answer or a discussion on this, and respect your decision to stop your comment here.

With friendship and peace.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Joseph Islam]

...and respect your decision to stop your comment here.

Thank you 

[Irfan]

Peace good logic,

As brother Joseph pointed out, you want to address your views (life only on earth) by commenting on 42:29 (or 16:49).  This is the key verse  that clearly tells us that there are "daabbah" (life forms or crawlers/legged walkers) in "feehima" (in both the heavens and the earth). So I think this should not leave us any doubt that there is real life out in the cosmos - whether it is similar to our familiar life forms or not, is a question that we can talk about or better - speculate.

You may still have a point if you can provide some evidence from the Qur'an that the word "daabbah" in 42:29 may mean "angels"! Can the angels be considered "daabbah"?  I don't think so as per 16;49 which separately metions daabbah and malaaikah. Furthermore, there is a definition of the word "daabah" given in 24:45.

Now, another possible thought that pops up in my mind by reflecting on  "wa min al-ardhi mithalahunna" in 65:12 is the possibility that the word "ardh" here is being used in the form of the phrase "wa min al-ardh mithlahunna" (from the Earth in a similar fashion) and not "al-ardh mithlahunna". So, the verse 65:12 would make some sense to assume that our planet Earth is (in a similar fashion) made of seven/many - (perhaps) layers/varieties - with no specific reference to life. In that case, the verse 65:12 should be treated independently of 42:29 an 16:49. The latter is a valid possible because the word "ardh" in the Qur'an is not only mentioned solely as the planet "Earth" but also in the context of 'a part of the planet Earth (i.e, country, a tract of land where a community lives) in several verses (e.g., 5:21, 7:110). This most likely refers to the extraordinary diversity of shapes and beauty of the many different parts of the planet Earth - like seven/many heavens.
God be praised. The Qur'an is an infinite ocean - it satisfies human curiosity at several levels - what a grace of the Most High!

[good logic]

Peace Irfan.

My  take on "Dabbah":

1-It could be any living beings. eg,Angels,humans,Animals/insects,other "moving creatures".

2- It could be any created  "material" vegetation,soil,rocks,,etc...

3- It could be what humans made out of these materials, aeroplanes,cars,computers,etc...

4- Or any combination of any of the 3.

For example :What does "dabbah" here mean?
وَإِذا وَقَعَ القَولُ عَلَيهِم أَخرَجنا لَهُم دابَّةً مِنَ الأَرضِ تُكَلِّمُهُم أَنَّ النّاسَ كانوا بِـٔايٰتِنا لا يوقِنونَ


If we can think that everything created consists of "Atoms" . Qantom physics is setting a whole new thinking about atoms and their behaviour. i.e a living matter in all creation?

So does GOD recall back to Him everything created?

Another thought to ponder.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Irfan]

Peace Good Logic,
I think the Daabah cannot be a machine, or computer.  It spits whatever is fed into it. It cannot decipher the Revelation.
And I don't think dabbah is angels either---please take a look at 16:49 where the dabbah and the angels are mentioned as separate entities. Also, the definition of the (dabbah) is given in 24:45—it seems to be all about animals - man is included as an example of the “daabah” as per 24:45 – and so are the birds because they are bipedal also (some people may not include birds because they are mentioned separately from the daabbah in the same verse).
Now, a word about the following verse you quoted (27:82):
وَإِذا وَقَعَ القَولُ عَلَيهِم أَخرَجنا لَهُم دابَّةً مِنَ الأَرضِ تُكَلِّمُهُم أَنَّ النّاسَ كانوا بِـٔايٰتِنا لا يوقِنونَ
I must admit that I do not have a clear understanding of this verse despite my best efforts. This seems to be a prediction.  If I were a Sunni or a Shi’a, I would say “Ahah, this is precisely about the “Mahdi” who will come at the end of time!!! 
Even though I am not sold on the concept of some Mehdi coming to the world to convince the world of the veracity of the Qur’anic signs,  I must ask you the question: Why can’t a man (or a group of men) be the "dabbah" referred to in this verse?  After all, man was created from the clay, therefore he fits right into the term (min al-ardhi). I believe a knowledgeable man of the 21st century can understand the Qur'an much, much better than the classical “imams”.  The ancient imams did not have the tools that we are blessed with today and I am sure the understanding of the Qur’an will get even better as God exposes man to more and more knowledge. Things are shaping up in a way that can potentially convince even the hard-core scientists. I believe we will have a lot more Francis Collins in time. The future will undoubtedly bring more astonishing discoveries about the realities of the Qur’an.

[good logic]

Peace Irfan.

I understand from 16:49 GOD singled out "Malaika" as the best example of all the "Dabbahs" in that none of them are arrogant.
 It does not mean "Angels" cannot be "dabbah"!

I understand from 24:45, that GOD is specifically talking abut the living creatures on earth ( water mentioned here,is also mentioned elsewhere- We made every living creature from water- Wa jaalna mina almaai kulla chain hai-)

As for 27:82, to me "dabbah mina alard " could not be human.Otherwise it would have been " Basharan minhum"or similar. Why?
Because.Qoran always uses "Basharan rasoolan" when it talks about sending a human.Also the word "Akhrajna"  does not mean send.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear Irfan and Good logic

Since your talking about verse
027.082
"And when the Word (Arabic: Qawlu) is fulfilled against them, we will bring forth for them a creature from the earth (Arabic: dabata-minal-ardi) speaking to them, that mankind did not believe with assurance in Our verses / signs"

I think this article is worth reading may God be willing.

A CREATURE FROM THE EARTH

http://quransmessage.com/articles/creature%20FM3.htm

Kind regards