Evolution

[A.H.A]

Salaam Joseph

I came across a topic in your website about evolution^[1]. I find it difficult to reconcile it with Quran[3:59]^[2]. I would like to know your opinion on this matter and interpretation of that verse.

Peace and regards.


^[1] http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm
^[2] إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ ۖ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

[Joseph Islam]

Dear A.H.A,

Wa alaikum assalam

Welcome to the forum!

I have responded to this question in another thread.

Evolution - Did Adam Evolve from a Different Species?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=370.msg1112#msg1112

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph

[Lobotomize94]

Salaam Joseph

I came across a topic in your website about evolution^[1]. I find it difficult to reconcile it with Quran[3:59]^[2]. I would like to know your opinion on this matter and interpretation of that verse.

Peace and regards.


^[1] http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm
^[2] إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ ۖ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

Salam,

Quran 3:59 says: Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

So there are 2 theories as to how Adam was created:

• Adam was created instantaneously and had no mother and did not exist in a womb
• Adam was not created instantaneously and had parents and existed in a womb

If anything brother, the above verse is saying Adam's creation is similar to that of Jesus. Since Jesus developed in the womb, it is likely that Adam also developed in the womb. After all, their formation was similar. This is obviously contrary tot he hadith claims of how Adam was formed. Adam likely formed inside a womb just like Jesus as depicted in 3:59

So it seems to be that this verse is actually compatible with the view that Adam was NOT the first human. He was a human who was chosen to be the father of all upcoming humans who accepted the test of Allah.

[Lobotomize94]

I would also like to point you to 3 good verses that show how Allah's creation of humanity took time and perfection and proportioning.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER/Best, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and perfected it. Notice how it says Allah began the creation of a human hinting at a process of human development.

(Quran 32,8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans that was proportioned and perfected overtime?

[A.H.A]

Thanks for your reply. I had a look at your reply on Evolution - Did Adam Evolve from a Different Species? and also other brothers in this forum, but unfortunately it does not cover my point.

My main points are in green.

Since Quran[3:59] is a continuation of story of Jesus/Isa (pbuh), I understand that verse as a counter argument in order to debunk/destroy one of the core argument of Christianity, otherwise it would be out of its context.

Christians argument:

• Since Jesus/Isa did not have a biological father, therefore Jesus/Isa is Son of God.
• Since Jesus/Isa is Son of God, therefore Jesus/Isa is God.

Quran's counter argument:

• Since Adam did not have a biological father and a biological mother, therefore Adam deserve more to be Son of God than Jesus/Isa.
• Since Adam is not considered and is not Son of God, therefore Adam is not considered and is not God according to Christian theology.
• Because Adam is not God, therefore the same rule applies to Jesus/Isa and Jesus/Isa is not God.

Believe in evolution suggests that Adam and his spouse both had biological (Primates, Homo sapiens, whatever) parents (mother and father) and unlike Jesus a living male was involved in the creation of Adam, thus it makes the analogy flawed.


Dear Lobotomize94, Salaam alaikum. You said:

"If anything brother, the above verse is saying Adam's creation is similar to that of Jesus. Since Jesus developed in the womb, it is likely that Adam also developed in the womb. After all, their formation was similar."

My question:

Why God would make such analogy?
Quran does not say:
          1 - "the example of Adam to Allah is like that of Jesus."
                rather it is quite the opposite
          2 - "the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam."
We all agree including Christians that Jesus/Isa developed in the womb, what is not explicit is the development of Adam in the womb, then the creation of Adam need analogy not Jesus. In order to explain that creation of Adam was similar to Jesus, then the verse must be like (1). Since it is not like (1), then my above interpretation is correct, it is a counter argument to divinity of Jesus/Isa, not a counter argument against Creationism.

I do not believe in what is written in the Hadith books regarding Adam's creation, because Quran does not give any reference to Hadith, rather Quran[29:20]^[1] gives our own observations and thus science as reference.

Peace and regards.

^[1] قُلْ سِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانظُرُوا كَيْفَ بَدَأَ الْخَلْقَ ۚ ثُمَّ اللَّهُ يُنشِئُ النَّشْأَةَ الْآخِرَةَ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

[Lobotomize94]

My question:

Why God would make such analogy?
Quran does not say:
          1 - "the example of Adam to Allah is like that of Jesus."
                rather it is quite the opposite
          2 - "the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam."
We all agree including Christians that Jesus/Isa developed in the womb, what is not explicit is the development of Adam in the womb, then the creation of Adam need analogy not Jesus. In order to explain that creation of Adam was similar to Jesus, then the verse must be like (1). Since it is not like (1), then my above interpretation is correct, it is a counter argument to divinity of Jesus/Isa, not a counter argument against Creationism.

I do not believe in what is written in the Hadith books regarding Adam's creation, because Quran does not give any reference to Hadith, rather Quran[29:20]^[1] gives our own observations and thus science as reference.

Peace and regards.

I don't think this verse is a counter argument against creationism. I think it is a counter argument to the divinity of Jesus. But is has nothing to do with whether or not they have biological fathers/mothers or not. Rather, it is to say that Adam And Jesus were both created by God's command out of earthly materials. How can Jesus be God if he is like Adam in that he was commanded to exist by God and made of earthly materials?

Now the question is, can this verse be shown to prove that the Quran does not argue for creationism? The answer is yes. When Allah says "Be" towards the formation of Jesus, did Jesus form instantly? Likewise, when Allah said "Be" towards the formation of Adam, why expect Adam to be formed instantly? Adam and Jesus' creation were similar. They both involved stages and steps. They both existed in wombs and so on. It may also be that Adam (like Jesus) did not have a father, but only had a mother. This is shown to be possible by science (getting pregnant without sperm or male involvement). https://cbhd.org/content/stem-cell-debate-are-parthenogenic-human-embryos-solution . Either way, in this very verse, the Quran also made it clear, that Adam was created in a long process and in a womb (just as Jesus was). Adam likely had a mother, though it is not clear whether he had a father.

Both Jesus and Adam shared a similar form of creation and God created them both from nothing and said "Be" and they were.

[A.H.A]

You said:

I don't think this verse is a counter argument against creationism. I think it is a counter argument to the divinity of Jesus.

That is exactly my point in the first portion of my reply (to Joseph).

You said:

But is has nothing to do with whether or not they have biological fathers/mothers or not. Rather, it is to say that Adam And Jesus were both created by God's command out of earthly materials. How can Jesus be God if he is like Adam in that he was commanded to exist by God and made of earthly materials?

I think you're messing a very important point here, this statement is directed to Christians and the main audience of this verse are Christians and Christians do not believe that Adam was a born human being, rather they believe Adam was created instantly by God in one day. If you show this verse to any Evangelist Christian the only possible thing that would come to in his/her mind would be birth without father and mother. That is why I asked this question in the first place.

[Lobotomize94]

You said:

I don't think this verse is a counter argument against creationism. I think it is a counter argument to the divinity of Jesus.

That is exactly my point in the first portion of my reply (to Joseph).

I think Joseph agrees that this verse is indeed a counter argument to the divinity of Jesus. If you read the post he linked to, Joseph explicitly stated this. The only disagreement between Joseph/myself and you is to whether or not this verse refutes the creationist claims that Adam was created instantly and never existed in the womb.

I think you're messing a very important point here, this statement is directed to Christians and the main audience of this verse are Christians and Christians do not believe that Adam was a born human being, rather they believe Adam was created instantly by God in one day. If you show this verse to any Evangelist Christian the only possible thing that would come to in his/her mind would be birth without father and mother. That is why I asked this question in the first place.

It is definitely true that the main purpose of this verse is a counter argument to the Christian claim that Jesus is God/divine. But, you must understand that God's word in the Quran is precise and accurate. When God says that the universe was created in 6 eons, he means the universe was created 6 eons regardless of whether that verse was a counterargument to the disbeliever's claims. Likewise, when God says that Jesus and Adam had a similar process of creation, then Jesus and Adam had a similar process of creation regardless of whether or not this verse was a counterargument to the Christian claim that Jesus was divine. So what is the similarity between Jesus and Adam's creation? Jesus and Adam were both created from dust (just like how we all are), and Allah said "be" and they were formed in a similar process of creation in a womb. God is very precise in language in the Quran, when God says X in the Quran, X is true regardless of whether X's major purpose was a counter argument to Christians. So if Jesus and Adam's creation is equivalent in its process, then Adam and Jesus formed in the same way.  We know that Jesus formed inside the womb and formed in a long process and Adam's creation had the same method, thus we deduce that the same occured with Adam.

Here is the argument:

Premise 1: If X and Y had the same method of creation, then the method X was created is identical to the method Y was created
Premise 2: X and Y had the same method of creation
Conclusion 1: Therefore, X and Y were created using identical methods
Premise 3: Method Z (slow process of creation in the womb) was used to create Y
Conclusion 2: Method Z was also used to create X

X= Would be Adam in the above argument
Y= Would be Jesus in the above argument
Z=Would be the method of creating from Dust, saying "Be" and allowing a slow process in the womb for the X and Y to develop.

[Lobotomize94]

You can also think of it this way. If Both Jesus and Adam were not formed in a long process and the only thing they had in common was the absence of parents, then how can Allah refer to their method of creation as being similar to each other? Their method of creation is not similar at all, in fact, they would be entirely different. If when God said "BE", the method to create Adam was instantaneous and the method to create Jesus took a long process in the pregnancy, then the methods are not similar at all, so Allah wouldn't refer to the method of their creation as being similar if one was formed instantly and the other was formed in a long process of proportioning in the womb. Secondly Jesus existed in the womb and was proportioned in the womb, if Adam didn't exist in the womb then how was Adam and Jesus' methods of creation so alike?? When Allah creates from dust and says Be, and Adam was formed instantly, then we'd expect Jesus to be formed instantly when Allah says "be" and both their methods of creation were alike. But Jesus wasn't formed instantly, so there is no reason to think Adam formed instantly.

[A.H.A]

Here is the argument:

Premise 1: If X and Y had the same method of creation, then the method X was created is identical to the method Y was created
Premise 2: X and Y had the same method of creation
Conclusion 1: Therefore, X and Y were created using identical methods
Premise 3: Method Z (slow process of creation in the womb) was used to create Y
Conclusion 2: Method Z was also used to create X

X= Would be Adam in the above argument
Y= Would be Jesus in the above argument
Z=Would be the method of creating from Dust, saying "Be" and allowing a slow process in the womb for the X and Y to develop.

This makes sense perfectly.