Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer? (tum'sūna)

[Sstikstof]

Peace brothers.

Wakas, as you well know, this salat issue is ongoing and will continue.

I believe the brothers and sisters who ask questions about salat are doing so with honesty. They want reassurance and as many views as it takes ,if they are not satisfied.

With respect,brother, I have read your article on "salat", and it leaves the reader with more questions than answers.I agree you are analysing the verses and  your aim is to  study the verses and dissect what is said in them. However there is salvation and obeying a message at stake.
 GOD has chosen "Arabic" for His last message. Why? __ Let me touch on it here a little bit_:
For example here is a verse about salat:

أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ لِدُلوكِ الشَّمسِ إِلىٰ غَسَقِ الَّيلِ وَقُرءانَ الفَجرِ إِنَّ قُرءانَ الفَجرِ كانَ مَشهودًا

What  do you say to this explanation:  All the 5 daily salat are included here, why?:

1- LIDULUKI--The letter "LI"implies repetition ( more than two,at least three, because there is a different  word for two in Arabic)  The sun declines during the three parts of its daily cycle __Noon to Afternoon, Afternoon to sunset and sunset to "Ghasak " darkness. One could argue here about the parts ,but it is commonly known that these are the only three parts of the sun cycle known by the whole world between midday and the darkness of the night.
2- "GHASSAKI" means when it is dark in the night. One part.

3-  "Wa,Qorani Alfajr"--Wa implies as well as ...do such..i.e  as well as "Aquimi salat at fajr, study/read Qoran also. ( Qoran study at fajr is very beneficial,we will not go into this here)

Hence  5 different parts of the 24 hour cycle mentioned for " Aquimi salat"...i.e 5  daily salat!

Peace Brother Good Logic. In this statement I want you to be assured of Joseph Islam's approach as member of this forum. In one of his article I have found it is being said,

Author:
Whilst the author is to be commended for stating there are two options for the phrase "duluk as-shams" in 17:78, one of the resultant interpretations cited is not possible according to the Arabic, quote:
"Therefore depending on the lean as to which interpretation one favours of the term ‘sun’s decline’ (i.e. whether from zenith or towards sunset) will determine whether one accepts this as a reference to all prayers from noon to sunset (Dhuhr, Asr and Maghrib) or exclusively to 'Maghrib'."

It cannot be a reference to "all prayers from noon to sunset (Dhuhr, Asr and Maghrib)" as the singular salat is used and only one time-period is given i.e. "establish salat at A to B". It is a common error for other articles promoting 5 to contain this obvious problem. In this case the author opts for it referring to one salat, e.g. "Maghrib".
 
Joseph Islam:
In the main, I do not disagree with the author's argument on this point.

 

Joseph Islam agreed that salat word is in singular address. So it is a reference to one prayer period, which is maghrib.

[good logic]

Peace   Sstikstof.

Thank you.

Yes, the issue of "salat" continues...

I can only speak for myself when I say I connect with my Lord 5 times a day.

 At this moment of time I have not seen evidence to the contrary.

GOD did say ,when HE sends any new scripture/messenger,that HE tries us with " our rites"

I believe ,once we start a relationship with the Lord,we have to trust in Him completely,including our understanding of His words/scripture.
I have always tried my best to stay  loyal to my Lord .open minded for learning His scripture,asking Him to guide me to do better and follow the best understanding . Of course I am always aware that I should never say "my mind is made up"!

Best of luck with your query/ies.
GOD bless you.
Peace brother.

[Wakas]

peace all,

GL, we have discussed timings of salat before on free-minds forum and little progress was made. Even in this thread we can simply look at the unevidenced claim you cited with "li" means repetition of 2+, or your baseless insertion into 17:79 of "as well as "Aquimi salat at fajr, study/read Qoran also.".

To be frank, this kind of "evidence" is not worthy of reply.

Also, you claim my article on salat leaves the reader with more questions than answers - perhaps for you, yes - but others have found it to make perfect sense. Each to their own.


Sstikstof, you are clearly unaware of what an assumption is. And you make a baseless and fallacious claim about "all sunni and shia" agreeing with your position. FACT: Traditional "scholars" do not all agree on what timed-SBH verse refers to what timed-salat. For example, I recommend reading what they say about 20:130 and you will find plenty of variance. As I said before, since you obviously cannot find any article analysing all timed-sbh verses trying to equate them to 5x daily salat, try writing one yourself and experience the confusion that results.

[good logic]

Peace Wakas.

Like you say, we keep  discussing salat,but we differ, why?

Your "evidence" is as clear as day and I am refusing to follow it?

I am simply being "Awkward"?

To everyone else (except me) it makes sense,including many who disagree with you?

My Qoran  and your Qoran are "two different "books?

You never make any "assumption", your views are always backed by "evidence",but I ignore them?

Look brother, I believe GOD and I check all my understanding with Him,simply because GOD is nearer to me than,anyone else:

When My servants ask you about Me, I am always near.
 I answer their prayers when they pray to Me.
 The people shall respond to Me and believe in Me, in order to be guided

Everyday I pray "May the Lord guide me to do/understand better".

However, keep up your search for the truth. May the Lord guide both of us.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Sstikstof]

Peace   Sstikstof.

Thank you.

Yes, the issue of "salat" continues...

I can only speak for myself when I say I connect with my Lord 5 times a day.

 At this moment of time I have not seen evidence to the contrary.

GOD did say ,when HE sends any new scripture/messenger,that HE tries us with " our rites"

I believe ,once we start a relationship with the Lord,we have to trust in Him completely,including our understanding of His words/scripture.
I have always tried my best to stay  loyal to my Lord .open minded for learning His scripture,asking Him to guide me to do better and follow the best understanding . Of course I am always aware that I should never say "my mind is made up"!

Best of luck with your query/ies.
GOD bless you.
Peace brother.

Salamun Alaikum, brother. In one sense you were right & both interpretations can be agreed regarding 5 prayers.

And to Wakas this is the reply for you from us both,
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

[Sardar Miyan]

When Bro Joseph Islam has posted a detailed Article about Salath why should we argue as the Article is clear about time of Salath.

[Wakas]

And to Wakas this is the reply for you from us both,
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

If this is also your reply, then I challenge you to a debate on free-minds.org/forum wherein you will have to defend the above article - and for every logical fallacy, assumption, baseless assertion etc I highlight you agree to donate $10 to charity. If there is disagreement on any point I make, the forum will vote and decide.

Do you accept my challenge?

[Sstikstof]

And to Wakas this is the reply for you from us both,
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

If this is also your reply, then I challenge you to a debate on free-minds.org/forum wherein you will have to defend the above article - and for every logical fallacy, assumption, baseless assertion etc I highlight you agree to donate $10 to charity. If there is disagreement on any point I make, the forum will vote and decide.

Do you accept my challenge?

LOL! Salamun Alaikum. Chill Dude, First, the above response through the article is not from me personally. Reply was mainly from Joseph Islam what seems to me most logical reply in the whole world that I can trust above all research. Why is it logical, because of GOD gifted sense about  making decisions. Your article is also correct, but most issues are not that correct which was covered by Joseph Islam. With his reply, there is no argumentation left to discuss personally from me. And personally i am not that eligible person to do debate as im still learning issues of Quran. I didn't make previous post to hurt you but point you where is the actual gap of misconception of Salat directives which even weak student like me can realize. If you are really upset, then my apologies is always to you & my intention was not like that you are assuming.

[QM Moderators Team]

And to Wakas this is the reply for you from us both,
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

If this is also your reply, then I challenge you to a debate on free-minds.org/forum wherein you will have to defend the above article - and for every logical fallacy, assumption, baseless assertion etc I highlight you agree to donate $10 to charity. If there is disagreement on any point I make, the forum will vote and decide.

Do you accept my challenge?

Wakas,

Can we kindly request that you immediately cease making such audacious - to some - crass challenges on this forum. (Despite where you want it to be held). Please share your opinion on this forum and leave it at that. These kind of challenges may work on the free-minds forum where you an administrator but they are not tolerated or have any place here.

Thank you!

[hicham9]

Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer (Entering upon Evening)? (tum'sūna - تُمْسُونَ) or Maghrib and Isha both???

This is a loaded question.

To my knowledge, the Qurān does not support the (sunni) "5 namaz per day" tradition. Your question presumes it does ! Also, to my scrutiny, the qurānic noun sloh (صلوه) does not denote "prayer" — at least not in 22:40.

سلامـ

[Sstikstof]

Can verse 30:17 refers Maghrib prayer (Entering upon Evening)? (tum'sūna - تُمْسُونَ) or Maghrib and Isha both???

This is a loaded question.

To my knowledge, the Qurān does not support the (sunni) "5 namaz per day" tradition. Your question presumes it does ! Also, to my scrutiny, the qurānic noun sloh (صلوه) does not denote "prayer" — at least not in 22:40.

سلامـ

Your theology is absolutely wrong. May be you are quranist that I assume. Please see the below article for more info.
http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/The%20Five%20Prayers.pdf

Please be notified that This is a Quran-Centric Forum. To know about Quran-Centric Position Please see the below article,
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/330796700390797

[hicham9]

May be you are quranist that I assume.

If by "quranist" you mean a maverick, independent thinker that doesn't mix andor foist the sunni corpus of apocryphal anecdotes upon the Quran, then yes! I happen to be one - thou, i would rather proclaim myself to be a hanif muslim, as this is what the Quran taught me, personally.

سلام

[Wakas]

peace,

Sstikstof, you did not offend me dont worry.
As a side note, Hicham9 is essentially pointing out what I did. You dont have to accept it, no big deal.

QM Mod Team, I understand your position. From now on if someone cites that article (with the implication that it is a satisfactory response) I will say something along the lines of "I disagree. If you wish to discuss it further please PM me as I'm not allowed to respond to it publicly on this forum".

[Sstikstof]

peace,

Sstikstof, you did not offend me dont worry.
As a side note, Hicham9 is essentially pointing out what I did. You dont have to accept it, no big deal.

QM Mod Team, I understand your position. From now on if someone cites that article (with the implication that it is a satisfactory response) I will say something along the lines of "I disagree. If you wish to discuss it further please PM me as I'm not allowed to respond to it publicly on this forum".

Salamun Alaikum, Regarding the verse 30:17, I have acknowledged that these are in plural address and indicating continuity of the salat in general sense like in urdu (subha / sham), but not specific periods. you were right about this plural address not indicating the salat periods exactly, but some sort of continuity as idiom.