Geocentrism and Flat Earth in Quran II

[Star]

Salam,

I created a new thread about geocentrism from the previous one, because people were getting off-topic.

It seems from the following Quranic verses that the Quran supports the idea of a stationary Earth and a revolving Sun and moon. This may be an error in interpretation or understanding, so can someone please clarify what the following verses mean:

 "Allah is he who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and he is firm in power and he made the sun and the moon subservient to you; each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord." -13.2

"The sun and moon follow courses exactly computed." -55.5

"He who made the earth a fixed place and set amidst it rivers and appointed for it firm mountains and placed a partition between the two seas. Is there a god with God? Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge." -27.61

It seems like these verses indicate that the Earth is stationary while the Sun and moon move, although not necessarily around it.


The other issue is with the idea of Earth being flat. Several Quranic verses say that the Earth is "spread out like a carpet." I understand that this can still mean it is spherical, because you can "spread out" whip cream on a spherical apple. However, verse 88:20 uses a different word, "sutihat," to describe the earth. This word was also translated as "spread out" in Quranic translations, but Arabic classical dictionaries say that its primary definition is "flattened" or "made flat."

"And at the Earth, how it is spread out [or flattened, 'sutihat']?" -88.20


It seems like certain Quranic verses indicate the theory of geocentrism, and also apparently indicate that Earth is flat. Again, this is probably an error in my own interpretation or literal definition. Can someone please clarify this issue?

[Star]

I really am sorry about this, since some people gave answers in the previous thread. However, none of them specifically addressed the question.

Please don't cite additional verses that suggest the Earth is round and is in orbit, without addressing the verses I cited. I just want to see alternative interpretations of these particular verses, which apparently say that the sun and moon move, the earth doesn't, and the earth is flat. And as I said, that's just what I thought the verses meant when I read them. I might be wrong. I just wanted clarification on this.

[Star]

I apologize if this goes against the rules of the forum, but I'm copying Hicham9's reply from the previous geocentrism thread. He states that the Quran really does advocate a geocentric theory, but this doesn't make sense; we all know that the Sun does not revolve around Earth.

He said:


Qurān advocates a geocentric view of the fascinating (dualistic) world we were born into (Creation), and does in fact negate heliocentrism on many occasions.

For instance, nowhere does the textus give mention of a "spinning ball-earth" ! Instead the Author directs the reader's attention towards an extended plane that His Absoluteness, The Supreme Creator, made a stable, ground-floor/carpet for us to dwell upon.

Consider this: in Arabic, the locution "flat earth" translates as: ارض مسطحة

Adj. مسطح (fem. مسطحة) stems from the Arabian, šemitic verbal-root sṭḥ (سطح).

Now, take a look at the one and only occurrence of vb. سطح in the Qurān (88:20) :


افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?


The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Korān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamitrsadhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

سلام


What are the views of other forum members on this issue, and how can we reconcile this with science?

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

With respect to your question of whether, from a Quran perspective, the earth is flat or not I think the following response may be of a benefit:

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Quran-say-that-the-Earth-is-flat/answer/Akbar-Hashmi-2?srid=t0CR&share=1

Having read the above, I believe the verses referring to the "flatness" of the earth to be a metaphorical. When you stand on the road, does the Earth not look flat to you? Indeed it does. But when viewed from outer space it's round.


And with respect to 27:61 and the usage of the words "made the earth a fixed place" in my opinoin this may be an error in translation. Muhammad Asad translates that same verse as follows:

"Nay - who is it that has MADE THE EARTH A FITTING ABODE [for living things], and has caused running waters [to flow] in its midst, and has set upon it mountains firm, and has placed a barrier between the two great bodies of water? Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, most of those [who think so] do not know [what they are saying]!" [Quran 27:61]

And he goes on to say the following in his commentary for that verse as well as 77:25-26: "Lit., 'place of rest'.  This refers not merely to the fact that the earth is an abode for living and dead human beings and animals, but is also an allusion to the God-willed, cyclic recurrence of birth, growth, decay and death in all organic creation - and thus an evidence of the existence of the
Creator who "brings forth the living out of that which is dead, and brings forth the dead out of that which is alive."


With respect to the geocentric argument, I plan to give my two cent in due time, God willing.

[A.H.A]

Peace Mia

I've already posted my view regarding Hicham9's reply in the previous thread.

Here is the summary:

The problem is not the word "سُطِحَتْ", rather it is the translation of the word "ٱلْأَرْضِ" that makes the problem. According classic lexicons, "ٱلْأَرْضِ" means, surface of the earth, ground, soil, dirt, land, etc etc. Planet earth or Earth (with capital E) is something new. Therefore, it is not honest to translate or interpret "ٱلْأَرْضِ" as "planet earth" or "Earth".

Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?

To say planet earth is flat based on this verses is like judging a picture by looking at one pixel. Planet earth is the picture and what the 7th century Arab is looking at is the pixel.
Lets change the verse and see what happens.

Do they not then look ... at the Earth/planet_earth how was it made spherical.

The above verse would be incorrect, because according to the context (Q[88:17-20]), a 7th century Arab could not possibly see a sphere from his standing position.

For earth being stationary, Q[13:2] and Q[55:5] say nothing explicit. In Q[27:61], translating the word "قَرَارًۭا" to "a fixed place" is possible but not necessary.

[Star]

Hassan: I was pretty worried about the idea that the Quran supports a geocentric theory, and even after looking it up a bunch of times, your answer is more convincing than most of the stuff I've read on other sites. Upon rereading, this verse is asking people to LOOK at the world. When you LOOK at it, it seems conveniently flat. So from that point of view, the surface of the earth is actually leveled. Makes sense. And yes, some other translations do translate this as "a fitting abode or place of living."

A.H.A: So the word that they translate as "earth" is actually "surface of earth, soil, etc"?! THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. The Earth isn't exactly flat, but when you look at the surface, it is. And who is this verse addressing? Primarily the desert Arabs, who didn't even have mountains in their area, so for them, the surface of the earth did seem completely flat.

I have a theory as to why the movement of the earth wasn't mentioned along with the sun and moon. Maybe because the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us.

May I use both your answers (with citations) in a certain rebuttal I'm writing?

Thnx, Mia

[hicham9]

Salute @Mia, all

Can ye provide one single qurānic passage that gives mention of a "spherical earth" andor a "spinning/rotating" earth ?

I don't think so

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

You are more than welcome to use the answer/s I've provided in your rebuttal writing.

With regards to the verses which supposedly state that the earth is "flat", it would help to remember that the word earth (Arabic: ard) doesn't always mean the planet earth in general. The word earth (Arabic: ard) can also mean the ground/land as evident in the following verse:

"The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome." [Quran 30:2-3]

In he above verse the word 'ard" (meaning earth) means 'land" and not the planet earth.

So context of the word 'ard' (earth) will always determine whether it is the earth in general or a part of land that is being referred to.

You also said:

"the desert Arabs would have totally freaked out if the movement of the Earth was mentioned, so God omitted this particular fact, only alluding to the orbits of the celestial bodies above us."

You are absolutely right. As Joseph Islam once said:

"The Quran was not meant to turn the desert people, to whom it was sent to, into future scientists, nor to present information which could only be verified 1400 years later by modern scientific developments. Rather, the purpose was to present arguments to the people to whom it was sent to in a way that their 1400 century minds could grasp, and in a way in which they, at that time, perceived the world around them, with a view to remove all doubts, so that they could better relate to them. It would be pointless, I would think, to present 'facts' which the desert Arabs could never verify. Neither would there be much point to present them with arguments which their minds at that time could not comprehend nor with details that they could never grasp."

[hicham9]

With regards to the verses which supposedly state that the earth is "flat", it would help to remember that the word earth (Arabic: ard) doesn't always mean the planet earth in general. The word earth (Arabic: ard) can also mean the ground/land as evident in the following verse:

Actually, no matter how you look at it, the earth remains the earth, whether seen from ground-level, or from a high altitude.

Instead of "Planet" — think PLANATE.

SLM

[Hassan A]

The point I was making is/was that when viewed from the ground (as the desert arabs did) the Earth not looks flat. But when viewed from outer space it is round.

[hicham9]

The point I was making is/was that when viewed from the ground (as the desert arabs did) the Earth not looks flat. But when viewed from outer space it is round.

Salute @Hassan,

Your argument is invalid because it presupposes the Qurān was sent only to a "primitive" 7th c. Arabs, when according to itself, the addressee is Humanity as a whole, the people (الناس) - aka. Adamites (بني ادم) !

Natheless, the point I was making is = it doesn't matter whether you're at ground-level, mount everest, or even as high above msl as the (so-called) "stratosphere," the earth will always look perfectly planate 360° around the observer — In other words, the earth does not look "round" from "outer space" (as we were conditioned to believe since childhood) - but Flat.

The Word of ALLH is Absolute.

سلام

[Hassan A]

Salaam hichman9,

Your argument is invalid because it presupposes the Qurān was sent only to a "primitive" 7th c. Arabs

Not necessarily. I acknowledge that that the Quran was sent to all of mankind. I was simply making the point that the Quran, in order to convince the desert Arab (its initial audience), would have had to speak in a language they could understand; and present arguments which their minds, at that time, could comprehend.

Natheless, the point I was making is = it doesn't matter whether you're at level, mount, or even as high above msl as the (so-called) "stratosphere," the earth will always look perfectly planate 360° around the observer — In other words, the earth does not look "round" from "outer space" (as we were conditioned to believe since childhood) - but Flat.

From the view point of someone on the ground, the earth looks flat. But from the view point of someone in outer space, the earth is round. This is a fact.

Are you seriously arguing that the earth is flat?

[Star]

Salam Hassan, yes, he is seriously arguing that the Earth is flat, unfortunately. And even though this discussion has somewhat wandered out of the realm of Quranic verses, I still have an obligation to correct that belief. This is the earth viewed from space:



Hicham9: The Quran as we have previously explained, does not support geocentrism. And the Quora link Hassan gave shows that the Quran says the earth is kind of egg-shaped. As in round. Common sense tells us Earth is round and the Sun does not revolve around it, the Quran agrees, science says so too. So on what basis are you continuing to believe that Earth is flat?!

I understand that this is not necessarily religious, but when I encounter humans in the 21st century believing that the world is flat, I can't help correcting them.

Mia

[hicham9]

That's a fake, unrealistic CGI !!!

I wouldn't lend much credibility to photographs if i were you, as these can be easily manipulated andor forged (using a photo editor) !

Regardless, i'm yet to see any qurānic evidence in support of the pseudo-scientific doctrine of heliocentrism ! Just wishful thinking

سلام

[hicham9]

Another fake composite image by NASA, purportedly taken 443 miles above the earth !