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Offline adnan11_in

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Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« on: January 16, 2016, 01:20:35 PM »
I was just reading Quran to see, what it talks about water ?

And I came to know, Water was Created before Big Bang (11:7)

In fact, Water is the first Product after Pen (the program and documentation of creation plan)

And I analyzed form other verses, Allah SWT is so supreme energy, temper and Power that Nothing can exist in his direct presence.

So Allah SWT first created Water, as a filter, barrier  and a shield from himself, that Big Bang can take place in a stable atmosphere and temperature. (11:7)

Low temperature and low energy state, than that of Allah's world and Throne.

And the Products of Big Bang was Stars made of exploding elements and planets made of Lava and sterile rocks,
But, they was at different temperatures as sun and earth (lava n Rocks).

And at the temperature of Big Bang, water cannot be produced or stable.
And that temperature produces just sterile lava, burning and exploding elements and rocks.(41:39)

And among His Signs in this: you see the earth barren and desolate; (2.5 Billion years ago)
but when We send down rain to it,(450 million years ago as icy Meteorites and asteroids)
it is stirred to life (single cell and multi-cell life 400 million year ago) and yields increase (multi cellular, bisexual live, 100 million years ago).
Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth, can surely give life, to (men) who are dead.
For He has power over all things. (41:39)
 
Then, water was added forcefully, to bring down temperature and produce organic molecules and life.
And form this organic molecules, The Microbes, The animal and The plant life was produced.(2:27- 29:20)

Then form the death and decay of this Microbes, Animals and Plants, "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" or decaying stinking earth was made, and form this earth Adam AS was made.15:26 -23:12 - 2:29

This Gives room to Theory of Evolution and Existence of Dinosaurs world, as Preparation measures for "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" and then Placing of Adam AS on perfected Earth.(2:29)

And the Theory of evolution and Dinosaurs World was exterminated after they perform their purpose. 

And where ever Quran talks about water and rain, it is not the water cycle or clouds and rain, But water form shield of Universe, from Barrier of Allah SWT, as Icy meteorites and asteroids showers and bombardments on just planet earth.

This is my Analysis and Allah knows the Best

Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2016, 12:02:02 AM »
I was just reading Quran to see, what it talks about water ?

And I came to know, Water was Created before Big Bang (11:7)

In fact, Water is the first Product after Pen (the program and documentation of creation plan)

And I analyzed form other verses, Allah SWT is so supreme energy, temper and Power that Nothing can exist in his direct presence.

So Allah SWT first created Water, as a filter, barrier  and a shield from himself, that Big Bang can take place in a stable atmosphere and temperature. (11:7)

Low temperature and low energy state, than that of Allah's world and Throne.

And the Products of Big Bang was Stars made of exploding elements and planets made of Lava and sterile rocks,
But, they was at different temperatures as sun and earth (lava n Rocks).

And at the temperature of Big Bang, water cannot be produced or stable.
And that temperature produces just sterile lava, burning and exploding elements and rocks.(41:39)

And among His Signs in this: you see the earth barren and desolate; (2.5 Billion years ago)
but when We send down rain to it,(450 million years ago as icy Meteorites and asteroids)
it is stirred to life (single cell and multi-cell life 400 million year ago) and yields increase (multi cellular, bisexual live, 100 million years ago).
Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth, can surely give life, to (men) who are dead.
For He has power over all things. (41:39)
 
Then, water was added forcefully, to bring down temperature and produce organic molecules and life.
And form this organic molecules, The Microbes, The animal and The plant life was produced.(2:27- 29:20)

Then form the death and decay of this Microbes, Animals and Plants, "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" or decaying stinking earth was made, and form this earth Adam AS was made.15:26 -23:12 - 2:29

This Gives room to Theory of Evolution and Existence of Dinosaurs world, as Preparation measures for "Teen, Slsaal, Hama, Labiz" and then Placing of Adam AS on perfected Earth.(2:29)

And the Theory of evolution and Dinosaurs World was exterminated after they perform their purpose. 

And where ever Quran talks about water and rain, it is not the water cycle or clouds and rain, But water form shield of Universe, from Barrier of Allah SWT, as Icy meteorites and asteroids showers and bombardments on just planet earth.

This is my Analysis and Allah knows the Best

Quran doesn't support Big Bang Theory or Theory of Evolution. The water and earth (without form) were present before God created the heavens and earth. There is no reliable evidence to say that the earth is billions of years old. Best to wait until there is credible evidence - same goes for Theory of Evolution.

Go to any place where it is barren and desolate today and you will observe life springing into being after rainfall. I accept some will say that the land contains seed but technically seeds are dead. It is God who makes them split and grow. This is a miracle that can be observed clearly again and again. It's not a natural phenomena.


Offline Hassan A

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2016, 04:34:24 AM »
Salaam samson,

You said:

Quote
Quran doesn't support Big Bang Theory or Theory of Evolution

With regards to the theory of evolution the following article, in my opinion, makes a good argument for it from a Quran perspective:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

With that said, I would like to ask why you (and hicham9) insist on throwing-out the window ever (science related) issue which the Quran either fails to speak on (or is silent on)? Bear in mind that the Quran, though it imparts creative signs of God from human creativity to cosmic space (etc), is not a science book; the Quran was not meant to touch on every issue under the sun. The purpose of the Quran, I believe, is to provide us spiritual guidance.

There are many issues which the Quran is silent on. But this silence neither means that the Quran is incomplete nor that those issue are non-existent. Consider for example the existence of dinosaurs. The Quran is silent on whether they existed or not; but this silence should not be interpreted as absence. In other words, just because the Quran is silent on the existence dinosaurs should not, therefore, be interpreted as dinosaurs having never existed.
So, with respect to issues such as the big bang theory, the existence of dinosaurs, the age of the earth, etc some of them we may find support for in the Quran and others the Quran is silent on. But in any case, the Quran admonishes the believers to to seek knowledge and learn about God's creations in the heavens and the earth; and that is what we must done. We should not dismiss an issue simply because the Quran is silent on it.

You also said:

Quote
There is no reliable evidence to say that the earth is billions of years old.

It depends on what you mean by reliable evidence? I can cite you ample scientific evidence which supports the earth being billions of years old, as well as evidence to support the big bang theory, the existence of dinosaurs,etc.

Again, on the age of the earth I would like to cite you the following quote (accompanied by and illustration) from one of Joseph Islams article:

"It is to be appreciated that out of a total of 6 periods (which could be any number of large epochs), it took four of them to create the Earth's contents. This clearly does not indicate an instantaneous creation.
 
"And He placed therein (Earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings therein (on the Earth), and measured therein its sustenance in four periods (Arabic: ayyamin), in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance)" [Quran 41:10].
 
"Please note in the above verse the mention of sustenance for all God's creatures of all kinds and complexities. It is important to remember that one creature in the food web is often a means of sustenance for another within the animal kingdom. This whole process to create them took 4 periods out of the total of the 6 periods to create the universe."
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/six%20periods/six%20periods%20FM2.htm

Peace.

Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2016, 08:30:46 PM »
With regards to the theory of evolution the following article, in my opinion, makes a good argument for it from a Quran perspective:

THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

With that said, I would like to ask why you (and hicham9) insist on throwing-out the window ever (science related) issue which the Quran either fails to speak on (or is silent on)? Bear in mind that the Quran, though it imparts creative signs of God from human creativity to cosmic space (etc), is not a science book; the Quran was not meant to touch on every issue under the sun. The purpose of the Quran, I believe, is to provide us spiritual guidance.

I can't speak for hicham9 but I myself believe the Quran clearly explains that God created life and all the variety of it  miraculously. It may not have happened instantly but I believe it took days as in 24h days to do it. Many believers will accept that God can do anything and if He wanted to he could have done it instantly or over a number 24h days. But I think some of those believers are hesitant to believe in it as they feel overwhelmed by the so called "scientific evidence". They're overwhelmed because they don't really understand Evolution/Theory of Evolution and what DNA/Fossil evidence is actually evidence of.

The Quran clearly describes the creation of Adam and makes absolutely no mention of it taking many years or of him gradually "evolving". Adam is created and then he is presented before the angels. The Quran also says that the similitude of Jesus is that of Adam.

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. - 3:59 Yusufali"

From the above verse no one can deny that Jesus was created pretty much instantly - this is very clear from the above verse. So while I agree with Joseph Islam on a lot of things I can't agree with his understanding on this area.

The vast majority of believers who accept that humans evolved from a common ancestor confuse Evolution with Common Ancestry. They are 2 different areas. Evolution is a fact. We can observe it happen. Common Ancestry has never been observed and in fact observations show that there are barriers to it.

When it comes to science you need to be precise and clear what you observing, how you are measuring, what the parameters are, what your methods are, etc. That's proper science. So when it comes to understanding Evolution you need to have a definition of evolution and if your observations fit the definition and it's repeatable then you can say it's a scientific fact. Hence Evolution is a fact but Common Ancestry is assumption and very weak one at that.


Offline Hassan A

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 10:04:15 PM »
Salaam samson,

you said:

Quote
I myself believe the Quran clearly explains that God created life and all the variety of it  miraculously.

As do I. I am not disputing this fact.

Quote
It may not have happened instantly but I believe it took days as in 24h days to do it

What lead/leads you to this believe? What evidence do you have to share with me to back up that assertion?

Quote
Many believers will accept that God can do anything and if He wanted to he could have done it instantly or over a number 24h days.

Again, I don't dispute this fact. But you must understand that God is not bound by human concepts of time. A 'yaum' (period) can represent any number of years or earthly time. Consider the following verses which supports this:

""And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and God will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number" [Quran 22:47]

""To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years" [Quran 7:4].

As evident by the above verses, God exists outside time and space; therefore time is meaningless. I don't wish to regurgitate the same arguments Joseph Islam already laid out in one of his articles pertaining to this subject, so I kindly advice to read it then, afterwards, share with me your disputation.

Quote
The Quran clearly describes the creation of Adam and makes absolutely no mention of it taking many years or of him gradually "evolving".

Again, please take into account the fact that God is not bound by human concept of time. So while a certain issue may occur in an instant with God, to us it may come about come about in a long and gradual process.

With respect to God's word of 'be and it is, it is merely a means that a command has been executed. So when God says 'kun', all it refers to is the execution of His command. Whether this is an instant or part of a billion year process, they all have God’s ‘kun’ behind it.

Lastly, your usage of 33:59 as 'evidence' of Adams (and therefore Human-beings) extant creation is, in my opinion, inaccurate. Nether that verse (and others like it which use the term be and it issuggest/s that Adam (or Prophet Jesus) were created in an instant. Bear in mind that Prophet Jesus had to undergo a gestation period in his mother's (Mary) womb. Clearly this is not an instant. Similarly, humans, too, had to evolve in their physiological state (bashar) before God's Divine energy (ruh) could be breathed into them and before they became 'insaan'. (as in the case of Adam).

THEORY OF EVOLUTION AND THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/evolution%20FM3.htm

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=370.0

Quote
They are 2 different areas. Evolution is a fact. We can observe it happen. Common Ancestry has never been observed and in fact observations show that there are barriers to it.

I fully concur. I am not making the argument that we, as humans, descended from monkeys; nor is that what is meant by the term 'common ancestry. Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'. This is different from the proposition that man has evolved from monkeys.

Peace.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2016, 10:41:08 PM »
Salaam all,

I agree with Hassan A and his comments. We cannot find every answer to science in the Quran but it has alluded to several scientific processes.

Hassan has mentioned about time being relative and provided verses to confirm this.
Evolution is not far fetched either and I do request that you read the articles by Joseph to get a better understanding of the nuances in the words.

Thanks


Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2016, 12:01:32 AM »

Lastly, your usage of 33:59 as 'evidence' of Adams (and therefore Human-beings) extant creation is, in my opinion, inaccurate. Nether that verse (and others like it which use the term be and it issuggest/s that Adam (or Prophet Jesus) were created in an instant. Bear in mind that Prophet Jesus had to undergo a gestation period in his mother's (Mary) womb. Clearly this is not an instant. Similarly, humans, too, had to evolve in their physiological state (bashar) before God's Divine energy (ruh) could be breathed into them and before they became 'insaan'. (as in the case of Adam).

I fully concur. I am not making the argument that we, as humans, descended from monkeys; nor is that what is meant by the term 'common ancestry. Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'. This is different from the proposition that man has evolved from monkeys.

Sorry but I'm rather confused here. You're saying that "Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'" yet that does not mean we humans descended from monkeys. The term "monkey" simply refers to a group of animals which share  certain traits. Now depending on which science book/video you take a look at and what the current "scientific evidence" is at the time humans could indeed have evolved from an animal from the monkey group. As of now I think the popular assumption is that it was some form of primate - but as you know with science that assumption could change in an instant.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether it was a primate or a monkey popular science is saying humans evolved from a less intelligent and quite a different looking animal. The question is how and why do you as a believer accept that? Are you swayed by the so called scientific evidence? If so please let me know what the evidence is as I certainly haven't seen any.

Even if you accept that Jesus spent 9 months in gestation that is still quick compared to millions of years. The fact that we spend around 9 months in gestation is in itself a miracle but because people have become accustomed to observing/knowing about births happening all the time it's absolutely natural and not something which should be regarded as a miracle. For me this is just as miraculous as Moses parting the sea if not a "bigger miracle"

We mustn't forget that something must have fertilized the egg in Mary's womb. I think you would find it hard to accept that whatever it was could have taken days or months. I'm of the opinion that it was in an instant. And then the Quran states that Jesus spoke as a baby. Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly. When you take all of these things together then it's very difficult to accept that the Quran supports Theory of Evolution.






Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2016, 12:09:33 AM »
Evolution is not far fetched either and I do request that you read the articles by Joseph to get a better understanding of the nuances in the words.

I'm sorry but Theory of Evolution is a far fetched idea. There is absolutely no evidence of it. Take one of the first steps of the Theory of Evolution where single celled organisms  evolve into multi-celled organisms. This cannot be reproduce in the lab. They've been trying for ages, it just doesn't happen.

When you observe the real world there are in fact barriers to Theory of Evolution as in animals just aren't able to reproduce with one another.   

Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2016, 12:19:06 AM »
As evident by the above verses, God exists outside time and space; therefore time is meaningless. I don't wish to regurgitate the same arguments Joseph Islam already laid out in one of his articles pertaining to this subject, so I kindly advice to read it then, afterwards, share with me your disputation.

God created the heavens and the earth in six days. The seventh day I believe he "rested" - as stated in the Bible. The six days plus one for "rest" making seven is something we humans are familiar with. I think if God had meant that each day was thousands of years then He would have clarified it by saying that each day was thousands of years as He did in those other verses.


Offline Hassan A

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2016, 01:09:14 AM »
Quote
God created the heavens and the earth in six days. The seventh day I believe he "rested"

With respect to God having rested on the seventh day, I disagree with you. To suggest He rested is to suggest that He felt fatigued after having created the universe; which is not a view I subscript to.

Quote
I think if God had meant that each day was thousands of years then He would have clarified it by saying that each day was thousands of years as He did in those other verses.

First off, even if God were to clarify it and say a thousand years, it still would not mean a thousand years in our reckoning; because, as evident by the verses I've cited you earlier, God is outside of time and space. A day with God is a thousand years with us. So, if a day with God is a thousand years with us, one can (only) assume that a thousand years with God would translate into something like a million (if not more) years with us.
And secondly, on what grounds can you assert that the word ayyamin (as in 6 ayyamin) automatically means six(6) human days? I am of the opinion that the word ayyamin (as in 6 ayyamin) means six periods or epochs, and not six human days.
So when the Quran says that Allah created the universe in six days, that would mean six days with Allah, but for us it would be mean six periods or epochs.

Quote
I'm sorry but Theory of Evolution is a far fetched idea. There is absolutely no evidence of it.

Again, this depends on what you mean by evidence. As alluded to earlier, I can cite you (at the drop of a hat) ample scientific evidence to support that theory.

Offline Hassan A

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2016, 05:31:42 AM »
Quote
Sorry but I'm rather confused here. You're saying that "Common ancestry simply means that both humans and monkeys share a 'common ancestor'" yet that does not mean we humans descended from monkeys.

Am not sure what part of that statement I made confused you. Common ancestry does not, as alluded to earlier, suggest that we, as humans, evolved from monkeys. It simply means what it sounds like - i.e we and monkeys share a common ancestor. Majority of the worlds scientists agree that we evolved from an ancestor that lived some 29-28 million years ago and diverged into two lineages. One of those lineages evolved to become what is known as 'Old World monkeys', the other evolved to become us.

Quote
We mustn't forget that something must have fertilized the egg in Mary's womb. I think you would find it hard to accept that whatever it was could have taken days or months. I'm of the opinion that it was in an instant.

Then upon you is the burden to prove this.

Quote
Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly.

Would you be so kind as to cite the verses which suggest that those acts occur in an instant?

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2016, 08:07:11 AM »
Asalamu Alykum Br. Samson

I think what Br. Hassan is telling you is that the common ancestor between monkeys and humans could be anything that was before them. Since the Quran tells us that God created man from sounding clay (Arabic: salsalin) from black mud (Arabic: ham-in) altered. This may or may not be the ancestor. It may be that God also created the animal kingdom from the same roots(black mud). Or even maybe not. But the scientific world see's there is evidence of evolution. May or may not. The article that was written about evolution by Br. Joseph has two purposes:

To provide a brief historical context of the theory of evolution
To briefly consider whether there is any support in the Quran for such a theory

026:007
"Do they not see the earth, how many of every noble kind We have caused to grow in it (Arabic: Anbatna)"?

For example only. The Earth contains many fruits and vegetables. How did these diverse fruits and vegetables get on earth. Were they created instantly and popped on earth each in its different places? Imagine yourself painting a picture. You drew a earth, then placed tress in different places.

Or did they evolve from something slowly from what ever was before it? And at times that very something can evolve into numerous other things. This could of took a very look time in the way we recognize time or it could of happened instantly. Either way it was caused by the demand and order of God. (2:117)"Be and it is."

I don't believe anyone is disputing the fact that God could create anything in a instant. For example, He may create the Earth in a instant from nothing with just sand covering the surface. Then He may create a human on that Earth from nothing again in a instant. By saying Be and it is. But the question is does the Quran suggest this? yes no maybe. In the end of course only God knows the truth.

At the same time if God willed He may created a cell and tell that cell evolve over time(billions of years in how we can observe in order to see the complexity and signs). He may make that cell show the signs of God by how God executed to make it evolve into space and matter and time. From that space matter and time evolves galaxies, from the galaxies evolved minerals and gases. And from the gases and minerals there evolved planets stars moons an earth. The earth evolved or grew into a form which may have rocks, sand, water, grass, plants, clay. From clay was evolved and formed a specie. From the same clay another type of specie or many types of species. But it could be from those species one is completely different(example humans). From grass evolved trees maybe many different trees.

A process like this could be executed by God saying "Be and it is" to the very first cell that He created, or whatever it was or isn't. Governing every step or creating the very first step and making it do what ever it was meant to do till the end.

All the above is just a mere example and should be seen only as a example and has no facts behind it. I'm just explaining that is what evolution can be. This in my view is something more complex to vision.


Peace and Blessings Insha'Allah


Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 08:25:15 PM »
Am not sure what part of that statement I made confused you. Common ancestry does not, as alluded to earlier, suggest that we, as humans, evolved from monkeys. It simply means what it sounds like - i.e we and monkeys share a common ancestor. Majority of the worlds scientists agree that we evolved from an ancestor that lived some 29-28 million years ago and diverged into two lineages. One of those lineages evolved to become what is known as 'Old World monkeys', the other evolved to become us.

This common ancestor - what do you/science think it looked like? My understanding is that it closely resembled the apes we have today both in physical features and intelligence. God in the Quran says he created "Man" and not something which resembles man.


Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 08:27:16 PM »
It depends on what you mean by reliable evidence? I can cite you ample scientific evidence which supports the earth being billions of years old, as well as evidence to support the big bang theory, the existence of dinosaurs,etc.

Yes, please cite the scientific evidence.

Offline samson

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 11:33:50 PM »
Quote
Also in other verses of the Quran it says God brings the dead back to life in moments or cures those who are ill/blind instantly.

Would you be so kind as to cite the verses which suggest that those acts occur in an instant?

Quote
   
So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand. - 2:73
- Dead body brought back to life after being struck.

Quote
“Or like the one who passed by a town and it had tumbled over its roofs. He said: “Oh! How will Allah ever bring it to life after its death?” So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: “How long did you remain (dead)?” He (the man) said: “(Perhaps) I remained (dead) a day or part of a day”. He said: “Nay, you have remained (dead) for a hundred years, look at your food and your drink, they show no change; and look at your donkey! And thus We have made of you a sign for the people. Look at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh”. When this was clearly shown to him, he said, “I know (now) that Allah is Able to do all things.”” 2:259
-Dead man brought back to life after 100 years and shown bones being brought together and being clothed with flesh.

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“And (remember) when Ibrahim said, “My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead.” He (Allah) said: “Do you not believe?” He [Ibrahim] said: “Yes (I believe), but to be stronger in Faith.” He said: “Take four birds, then cause them to incline towards you (then slaughter them, cut them into pieces), and then put a portion of them on every hill, and call them, they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.”” 2:260
-Dead birds brought back to life.

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“And will make him [Isa] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.” 3:49
-Clay bird brought to life.

All of the above are examples of miraculous phenomena which happened in moments. Some maybe a second or few seconds and some maybe minutes.