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Offline Athman

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2018, 02:39:57 PM »
Dear Br. niaz,

Salaam,

Kindly see my comments to your italicized sentiments below.

And yes, we were destined to be here, but the pre-destination does not contradict the fact that we are here as a consequence of the original sin. I don't know if you are suggesting that we are not here as a result of it. The pharaoh was predestined to drown in the sea, but his drowning was also a consequence of his tyrannical ways he led his life on earth.

In my humble opinion, I don't see Adam's sin the reason why we are all here on Planet Earth, rather it was Allah's plan that we be here in the first place (2:30) to test us (29:2-3) continuously to establish those faithful and steadfast as contrasted to those disbelievers and faithless (47:31, 67:2). All this also having some basis in 33:72 in the first place, and not due to Adam's sin. On the other hand, Adam and his spouse's misconduct should not have any bearing on us (2:134). In the main, as Bani Adam, we were meant to be here in our current statii and with the trials we do encounter in our lives, to establish our true resolve and be judged after an appointed term. About Pharaoh and his fate, I  trust that you would acknowledge the difference between a case where actions are put forth as a result of free-will and choice amounting to a deserved consequence and a case of Allah's original plan in ordaining something, as mentioned in the Qur'an. While the former has an attached individual's accountability apart from Allah's knowledge of it and its decree, the latter is attached to no one except Allah, His independent plan, with none else being there in the 'beginning' except Himself.

Then all three accounts proceed to detail the logical sequence of events, starting from our creation, and  God's commandment to the angels to acknowledge or honor us for the intellectual capabilities God bestowed upon us ....


This should not form the basis for our being on earth though. The misconduct of our progenitors here on earth just incurred them some degradation of their high status, promised and granted after being created, from that privileged status of felicity to a lower one. Br. Joseph's article summarizes this.

(0) Preface (2:30, 7:10, 20:115), introducing God's plan to place a substitute or successor on the land/earth, and the result: that Adam broke God's covenant under the influence of satan; and that we are established upon the earth [fulfilled through events (3) or (4) below].
(1) Creation of Adam and each of us (7:11), God's command to the angels, and the disobedience and fall of satan
(2) Dwelling of Adam/wife in paradise and the commandment of the tree
(3) Satan tricking Adam/wife into breaking the commandment of the tree.
(4) The expulsion of Adam/wife and satan, with "all of you" (addressing the audience of the Quran) to another place - the earth - as a temporary abode.
(5) Then during his earthly life, Adam receives words/guidance from God; and God accepts Adam's repentance.
(6) The purpose of our temporary existence here on this on earth, outlined for the rest of us ("all of you" ... the audience of the Quran) ...that we will receive guidance from God, and whoever among us will follow God's guidance has nothing to fear or grieve. If we turn to God, our repentance will be accepted, just as Adam's was.And if we reject/ignore God's reminder/proofs when it comes to us, we will end up among those who are ignored on the Day of Judgement.
This is the best answer we have to the deepest and most fundamental question in the mind of every human ... why are we here on earth? what is the purpose of our existence here? And this is a logical sequence - (4) was a consequence of (3), and (5) the atonement (tawba) for what happened in (3). If we don't read it as a simple and logical narrative, and break it up and make conclusions that are contradictory to this narrative, the message is lost. You have clarified that you do not have 'a pre-conceived assumption to conflate some theological perspective nor a world-wide or scientific view ...', but I failed to see the underlying reason to dispute or offer a counter narrative to the simple, logical, narration of events.

I hope my response above addresses this issue of our purpose on earth (6:165) as opposed to an 'Original Sin' concept propounded by you, which is outrightly negated by 2:134.

I admit I would have come across as opinionated .... my goal was not to badger, but to communicate my thoughts, and highlight the gaps in our perspectives. This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion, and thanks to you for that.


Thanks brother for your insights, I appreciate too. However, I think I respectfully have to ask you that you accept this as my last response to you on this matter. I would recommend that you propound a dedicated critique on Br. Joseph's article above in a separate thread if you have any contentions against it, that is if you feel that's Okay with you. I may as well comment from there if need be. This is to avoid this thread appearing indefinitely protracted into multiple topics. Personally, I do concur with Br. Joseph's perspective in the article as far as the Qur'an is concerned.

Pertaining the subject matter of this thread, I think we both have presented our cases above. We may just agree to disagree on some points.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline niaz

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Re: Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2018, 09:57:43 PM »
Salaam Athman,

Thank you. I can leave it there too. Not to continue the discussion any further, but only a quick clarification [since you mentioned 2:134], and I don't want the thread to end on a core misunderstanding about my perspective ... I am not saying we are responsible for something that only Adam did, in which we had no involvement - that would be negated by many verses, including 2:134. From my perspective, we are obviously equal participants in the original sin.

I don't want to write a critique on Joseph's article. I do have disagreements [and agreements] with different articles from different people, I don't intend to be writing critiques to all of them. Since you brought it up, I responded to you about it. But I can insha allah write an article summarizing my understanding on the passages, and addressing possible misconceptions and challenges, using the material in this thread as a reference. That may be a better starting point, than this thread.

Peace.