What is Haram

[A.H.A]

Ps. Slavery is out of the question as it contradicts the main message of the Quran: being a servant/slave to G-D alone !

There is a fundamental and huge difference between selling a human being like an animal in the market and being a servant/slave of God.

Cannibalism aside, you said that marrying animals is halal !
This is a lie.

The reason for those being Halal is because I can't find anywhere in the Quran any clear statement that says cannibalism and marrying animals are Haram. If you are claiming that they are Haram, then bring your evidence from revelation of God.

قُل لَّآ أَجِدُ فِى مَآ أُوحِىَ إِلَىَّ مُحَرَّمًا عَلَىٰ طَاعِمٍۢ يَطْعَمُهُۥٓ إِلَّآ أَن يَكُونَ مَيْتَةً أَوْ دَمًۭا مَّسْفُوحًا أَوْ لَحْمَ خِنزِيرٍۢ فَإِنَّهُۥ رِجْسٌ أَوْ فِسْقًا أُهِلَّ لِغَيْرِ ٱللَّهِ بِهِۦ ۚ فَمَنِ ٱضْطُرَّ غَيْرَ بَاغٍۢ وَلَا عَادٍۢ فَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌۭ

6:145

 وَٱلْمُحْصَنَـٰتُ مِنَ ٱلنِّسَآءِ إِلَّا مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَـٰنُكُمْ ۖ كِتَـٰبَ ٱللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ ۚ وَأُحِلَّ لَكُم مَّا وَرَآءَ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ أَن تَبْتَغُوا۟ بِأَمْوَ‌ٰلِكُم مُّحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَـٰفِحِينَ ۚ فَمَا ٱسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهِۦ مِنْهُنَّ فَـَٔاتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةًۭ ۚ وَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِيمَا تَرَ‌ٰضَيْتُم بِهِۦ مِنۢ بَعْدِ ٱلْفَرِيضَةِ ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًۭا

4:24

Q[6:145] and Q[4:24] clearly show that Halal is the default state. Eating flesh of man is not in Q[6:145], therefore no reason to say cannibalism is Haram. Animals are not included in Q[4:24], then for what reason you're labeling it as Haram? Q[6:145] also clearly shows that for Haram we need a statement from God. Q[4:24] clearly shows that anything which is not Haram is Halal.

When Quran declares something Halal, that is only for confirmation. Sometimes when Quran says "...not made Halal..." or "...It is not Halal for you...", in this case it means God is not confirming, therefore it can be classified as Haram.

Define halal

Anything which has not declared by God "Haram" is Halal and does not mean "allowed".

ولا تقولوا لما تصف السنتكم الكذب هذا حلل وهذا حرام
لتفتروا على الله الكذب ان الذين يفترون على الله الكذب لا يفلحون


16:116

Cannibalism aside, you said that marrying animals is Haram!
This is a lie.

Define Haram!

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum brothers and sisters

A.H.A you said:

Honestly, if a person does something only because God said so, and avoids something only because God said so, then how do we and/or God know that he/she is a good person and has some goodness/ethic inside him/her? he/she is just like a programmed robot without freewill and faculties to distinguish between right and wrong, and choose and act accordingly

I totally disagree. God first of all knows everything. To the very inner thoughts. To God the actions and the belief in Him is what counts. To humans its more of the actions that count. We only know people by their actions.

In verses 91:7-8 The soul recognizes what is bad for it and what is good for it. God has inspired this in the soul. Hence a choice has to be made which means freewill. A person is successful or rewarded if he keeps on purifying himself with good choices and works. And a person is in loss when corrupting himself by bad choices and works.

The freewill is believing in Gods commands and doing good deeds or the opposite. This is not being programmed. A person can actually not like to go against his own desires, weaknesses or sacrifice from his life time and wealth. But he/she does it out of fear and freewill to God.

And there might be times were a person likes and enjoys doing good things for the sake of humanity. While omitting God when he/she is aware may not be so acceptable.

A Facebook post from Br. Joseph

Recognise the Truth - Belief in God is Important

We are not only here on this planet to do good but ALSO to recognise truth. God is the ultimate truth. Recognition of truth and the insatiable desire for good conduct must work in tandem.
"The example of those who disbelieve in their Lord is (that) their deeds are like ashes which the wind blows furiously on a stormy day. They have no control (to keep) from what anything they have earned. That is an extreme error." (14:18)
Good works simply for the love of humanity is one thing. Good works for the love and sake of God and His creation which encompasses all humanity is quite another.
"We feed you only for the sake of God. We wish not from you reward or gratitude. Indeed, We fear from our Lord a Day harsh and distressful." (76:9-10)


Also regarding slavery see post below[1]




SLAVERY
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/321115287987807

[hicham9]

ولا تقولوا لما تصف السنتكم الكذب هذا حلل وهذا حرام
لتفتروا على الله الكذب ان الذين يفترون على الله الكذب لا يفلحون


16:116

You said that marrying animals is Haram! This is a lie.

No, i didn't !

This is a false accusation 

Show us where, you liar !

Marrying animals is Halal*, ... Cannibalism is not Haram*, ...

Marrying animals is Halal? Yes, but not allowed by God, just like alcohol is Halal, but not allowed by God.

Slavery is another good example beside alcohol. You can not find a single verse or statement in the Quran that makes slavery Haram, ...

I'm not out of my mind, I just don't want to label things Haram, I have no right to do so.

I think, the difference between me and you is that you exclusively rely on scripture and I on both scripture and reason.

If you're not out of your mind, then define halal !

[hicham9]

Anything which has not declared by God "Haram" is Halal

Wrong ! As already pointed out, this logic is flawed.
G-D has specified what is "halal" ! Why turn a blind eye to this fact ?!

and (halal) does not mean "allowed".

Then what does it mean, according to your (mis)comprehension ?!

[A.H.A]

I totally disagree. God first of all knows everything. To the very inner thoughts. To God the actions and the belief in Him is what counts. To humans its more of the actions that count. We only know people by their actions.

I don't see any disagreement between me and you.

يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَيَبْلُوَنَّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ بِشَىْءٍۢ مِّنَ ٱلصَّيْدِ تَنَالُهُۥٓ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَرِمَاحُكُمْ لِيَعْلَمَ ٱللَّهُ مَن يَخَافُهُۥ بِٱلْغَيْبِ ۚ فَمَنِ ٱعْتَدَىٰ بَعْدَ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ فَلَهُۥ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌۭ

5:94

You can take Q[5:94] as an analogy. God knows everything, but also tests us to make it clear. i.e God inspires the good and the bad in us, then tests us are we good and moral and choosing the good or the bad?

In verses 91:7-8 The soul recognizes what is bad for it and what is good for it. God has inspired this in the soul. Hence a choice has to be made which means freewill. A person is successful or rewarded if he keeps on purifying himself with good choices and works. And a person is in loss when corrupting himself by bad choices and works.

Exactly, I don't have any disagreement, that is what I meant.

The freewill is believing in Gods commands and doing good deeds or the opposite. This is not being programmed. A person can actually not like to go against his own desires, weaknesses or sacrifice from his life time and wealth. But he/she does it out of fear and freewill to God.

And there might be times were a person likes and enjoys doing good things for the sake of humanity. While omitting God when he/she is aware may not be so acceptable.

God's commands are only in the Quran, but God did not specify all good and bad deeds in the Quran. God has inspired most of the good deeds and the bad deeds as you said "God has inspired this in the soul". That is what I was saying, we must not seek the whole list of bad deeds and good deeds in the Quran.

Both God's commands which specify for us the good and the bad and God's inspirations which carry the same task (specifying the good and the bad), must be followed. And of course, the good deeds both from revelation (in the Quran) and inspiration (in the soul) must be performed for the sake of God only and not for the sake of ostentation; and the bad deeds both from revelation (in the Quran) and inspiration (in the soul) must be avoided for the sake of God only and not for the sake of ostentation.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

I note that this topic is getting very heated.

Firstly I think that  A.H.A, you are giving mixed messages because you are in places agreeing that certain acts are wrong but on the other hand, you have strange concepts regarding halaal /haraam for example:

Marrying animals is Halal? Yes, but not allowed by God, just like alcohol is Halal, but not allowed by God.

Marrying animals is not halal. In clear terms, the Quran tells you that you are to marry amongst yourselves. That is an instruction and the remit. Also it lists to the believers who is lawful for them to marry.

With the above we have an EXPLICIT statement about what is permissible

Anything outdside this remit would therefore be impermissable

Also you seem to think that consuming alcohol is halal. This is untrue:

005.090
"O ye who believe! wine / liquor / intoxicants (Arabic: Khamru) and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an abomination of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside / avoid it / shun it (Arabic: Fa-ijtanibuhu) in order that you may succeed"

005.091
"Satan seeks only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink (Arabic: Khamri) and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of God and from (His) worship. So will you (be) the ones to abstain? (Arabic: fahal antum muntahun)"

Read full article here:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htm

[A.H.A]

In the above illustration the circle shows all possible activities, foods, items etc. Each color indicates a category that a deed or item may fall into according to its nature.

In Quran [7:157], we read the following:

Who follow the messenger, the gentile Prophet, described in the Torah and the Gospel, who bids things noble and forbids things vile, makes Halal what is clean, and makes Haram what is foul, who relieves them of their burdens, and the yoke that lies upon them. Those who believe and honor and help him, and follow the light sent with him, are those who will attain their goal.

Q[7:157], describes what the Prophet does:

• Bids/commands things noble/good (يَأْمُرُهُم بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ)
• Forbids things vile (يَنْهَىٰهُمْ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ)
• Makes Halal what is clean/pure (يُحِلُّ لَهُمُ ٱلطَّيِّبَـٰتِ)
• Makes Haram what is foul/wicked/deceitful (يُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلْخَبَـٰٓئِثَ)
• Relives of the burdens (عَنْهُمْ إِصْرَهُمْ وَٱلْأَغْلَـٰلَ ٱلَّتِى كَانَتْ عَلَيْهِمْ)

Since Prophet is obligated to follow the Quran, I will briefly explain 4 of them using Quran below:

1 - Bids things noble/good

God bids/commands what is good:
Verily God has enjoined justice, the doing of good, and the giving of gifts to your relatives; and forbidden indecency, impropriety and oppression. He warns you so that you may remember. Q[16:90]

God also bids/commands what is both good and bad, But only for the good aspects of it:
And fight those (who fight you) wheresoever you find them, and expel them from the place they had turned you out from. Oppression is worse than killing. Do not fight them by the Holy Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do, then slay them: Such is the requital for unbelievers. Q[2:191]

I've failed to find a good example of something which is neutral (neither good nor bad), and enjoined by God, and of course, God does not bid/command what is bad and harmful.

2 - Forbids things vile

God forbids what is bad:
Verily God has enjoined justice, the doing of good, and the giving of gifts to your relatives; and forbidden indecency, impropriety and oppression. He warns you so that you may remember. Q[16:90]

O you who believe, avoid most suspicions: Some suspicions are indeed sins. So do not pry into others' secrets and do not backbite. Would any of you like to eat a dead brother's flesh? You would surely be revolted by it Then fear God. He is certainly forgiving and kind. Q[49:12]

God forbids what is both good and bad, but only for the bad aspects of it:
They ask you of intoxicants and gambling. Tell them: "There is great enervation though profit in them for men; but their enervation is greater than benefit. And they ask you what they should give. Tell them: "The utmost you can spare." So does God reveal His signs: You may haply reflect. Q[2:219] O believers, this intoxicants and gambling, these idols, and these arrows you use for divination, are all acts of Satan; so keep away from them. You may haply prosper. Q[5:90]

I've failed to find a good example of something which is neutral (neither good nor bad).

3 - Makes Halal what is clean/pure

In order to make something Halal, first, it must be haram, or there must be a group of people that already made that thing Haram and not practicing it, otherwise there would be no sense to make something halal while people are, without any doubt, considering it as something which is not Haram and practicing it; unless for confirmation or clearing doubts about it. Also it must be something pure/clean/good.

O you who believe, fulfill your obligations. Made Halal (as food) for you are animals except those mentioned (here); but Haram during Pilgrimage is game. God ordains whatsoever He wills. Q[5:1]

They ask you what is lawful for them. Say: "All things are Halal for you that are clean, and what the trained hunting animals take for you as you have trained then, in the light of God's teachings, but read over them the name of God, and fear (straying from the path of) God, for God is swift in the reckoning." Q[5:4]

Q[5:1] and Q[5:4] are either confirmatory or making something Halal which has already been Haram. (We can expect that people practiced eating meat of those animals, clean foods and hunting before Quran)

I (have come to) confirm the truth of the Torah which was sent down before me, and make certain things Halal which have been Haram until now; and I come to you with a sign from your Lord; so be fearful of God and follow me. Q[3:50]

Q[3:50], making things Halal which have been Haram, therefore nothing confirmatory.

4 - Makes Haram what is foul/wicked/deceitful

Whether something is already considered Haram or Halal, there have to be a clear explicit statement from God for that certain action or item to be labeled Haram, see Q[6:150,144].

As I've shown in the illustration, Haram can include, Good and clean things, bad and wrong things, neutral things, and that which may have both good and bad aspects.

Haram to you are carrion and blood, and the flesh of the swine, and whatsoever has been killed in the name of some other than God, and whatever has been strangled, or killed by a blow or a fall, or by goring, or that which has been mauled by wild beasts unless slaughtered while still alive; and that which has been slaughtered at altars, and also dividing the meat by casting lots with arrows. All this is sinful. Today the unbelievers have lost every hope of (despoiling) your creed; so do not fear them, fear Me. Today I have perfected your system of belief and bestowed My favours upon you in full, and have chosen submission as the creed for you. If one of you is driven by hunger without the evil intent of sinning, then God is forgiving and kind. Q[5:3]

From Q[5:3],

• Carrion, blood may fall into the category of "Bad/Wrong/Harmful/nonsensical" in the illustration and overlapped by the "red" shape.
• The Flesh of the swine, and whatsoever has been killed in the name of some other than God may fall in to the category of "Good/Right/Beneficial", because by mentioning name of false god(s) does not make the food physically impure, and because made Haram by God, therefore overlapped by the red shape.
• Animals which has been strangled, or killed by a blow or a fall, or by goring my fall under the category of "neutral" or "mix" or even "Bad, and overlapped by the red shape for being Haram.

In Q[4:23], Marrying with Foster Sister may fall under the category of either "neutral" or "Good/Right/Beneficial", overlapped by the red shape in the illustration.
In Q[6:151], All falls under category of "Bad/Wrong/Harmful/nonsensical, overlapped by the red shape in the illustration"

For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of God many [people], Q[4:160]

Q[4:160], clearly states that God can make good things Haram if He wills.


As I've proven by use of Quranic verses that, Haram less thing to do with Bad and Good, more with God's will and command. Therefore, Haram in my view, is a set of deeds and/or items which God makes it Forbidden for a certain group of people, differs from one Prophet to another, and they don't have to have any [rational/scientific] reason(s) behind them. Marrying Animals and consuming alcohol are in the category of "al-munkar" and not Haram, that is why Quran uses the word(s)/term "faijtaniboo" (=stay away) which does the second duty {=2 - Forbids things vile (يَنْهَىٰهُمْ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ)} instead of "Hurrimat AAalaykum" (=made Haram for you) which would be the fourth one {=4 - Makes Haram what is foul/wicked/deceitful (يُحَرِّمُ عَلَيْهِمُ ٱلْخَبَـٰٓئِثَ)}.

The above paragraph and the illustration, show my "strange" concepts regarding Halal/Haram.

I'm always open to change my view, in the light of good coherent arguments or a better understanding than what I've provided above.

I apologize for the length of my post. Thanks.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam A.H.A,

You mention the term 'faijtaniboo" (=stay away)' as it is used when talking about alcohol.

This same term 'faijtaniboo' is used for idol worship .
As it does not say explicitly 'haram' for idols, are you suggesting that is al munkar (disliked) too?

[A.H.A]

Idol worshiping is Haram, an explicit statement in the Quran:"Say: 'Come, I will recite what your Lord has made Haram for you: that you associate not anything with Him,......" Q[6:151]; Idol worshiping is associating partners with God, thus Haram.

"faijtaniboo" is used in Q[5:90] for "ansaab" which according to Arabic-English lexicon means stones erected in front of idols, and used to sacrifice/slaughter animals on them or by them and which became red by the blood of animals. An other instance of this word (ansaab, nusub) is used in Q[5:3] "مَا ذُبِحَ عَلَى ٱلنُّصُبِ (= What is slayed on nusub or erected stone)", which support this meaning.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

I notice that instead of focusing on the clear instruction by God to shun "faijtaniboo", you are focusing on ansaab instead.

If you look at another verse where "faijtaniboo" is used it clearly is talking about idols:

016.036
“And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger saying: Serve God and shun (Arabic: ijtanibu) false deities (Arabic Taghut). So there were some of them whom God guided and there were others against whom error was due. So therefore travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters”

The above is an instruction by God to shun therefore it is impermissible to do it!
As I mentioned before the word has been used for alcohol as well.

Thanks

http://quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htm

[Nura]

Salam everyone! I sometimes feel people forget what marriage according to the Quran is! It is a legally binding covenant/contract where both parties are supposed to be of sound mind and can understand the clauses of the marriage agreement! There is also specific use of gender specific term describing the financial responsibilities and payment of dowry by the groom! And both parties have to agree to the terms and conditions of the marriage contract! How does one exactly go about ensuring all this when attempting to marry an animal?! It is absurd to think this is a possibility! A thorough reading of the verses discussing marriage leaves no scope of doubt that it is an union between a female and male human! The verses don't even leave a scope to believe that a same-sex marriage is possible because of clear clauses and conditions that are to be met by men and women attempting to get married! Apart from explicit verses saying homosexuality is a transgression studying verses about marriage is clearly enough to conclude marriage is a union between a pair of physically, emotionally and mentally mature man and woman! And having sexual relationships with people/animal one is not married to is a sin! So technically just because the verse listing people you can't marry doesn't mention animals doesn't give u permission to marry someone from another species!  At times like this it really makes u realise how vital it is to have complete knowledge of all the verses relating to particular issues and not give verdicts based on one or two verses of the Quran! And also how easy it is to lead oneself and others astray when one lacks enough knowledge! May Allah protect us all and Allah knows best

[A.H.A]

I notice that instead of focusing on the clear instruction by God to shun "faijtaniboo", you are focusing on ansaab instead.

I thought you're asking about Q[5:90].

The above is an instruction by God to shun therefore it is impermissible to do it!
As I mentioned before the word has been used for alcohol as well.

If you read my post, worshiping idols (associating partners with God) is impermissible because it has been made Haram by God, also is al-munkar, therefore, God instructs us to stay away (aijtaniboo) from it. Alcohol is impermissible because it is al-munker, and Quran tells us to stay away (aijtaniboo) from it.

I see there is a misunderstanding regarding my view on alcohol.

Part of my post:

God forbids what is both good and bad, but only for the bad aspects of it:
They ask you of intoxicants and gambling. Tell them: "There is great enervation though profit in them for men; but their enervation is greater than benefit. And they ask you what they should give. Tell them: "The utmost you can spare." So does God reveal His signs: You may haply reflect. Q[2:219] O believers, this intoxicants and gambling, these idols, and these arrows you use for divination, are all acts of Satan; so keep away from them. You may haply prosper. Q[5:90]

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam A.H.A

I am not misunderstanding you but what I am saying is that alcohol is not al-munkar (disliked) but rather haram (impermissible)

You are not focusing on the meaning and implication of the word"faijtaniboo" (to shun) properly.

If it is used for idols and also in other places it states it is haram to worship idols, then by logic
"faijtaniboo" (to shun) would be akin to haram.

It can't be al-munkar (disliked) in one place and haram in another can it

[A.H.A]

I've already explained al-munkar and Haram in the above diagram which simply illustrates the four types of deeds (al-munkar, al-mAAroof, Haraam, and Halaal) present in Q[7:157], and which clearly shows that anything can be both al-munkar and Haram at the same time. there is not any support for a binary view in the Quran, because a binary view would contradict Q[7:157], since it introduces trinary view.

This thread is going towards a debate, and I, personally, don't like debates and always seek to avoid engaging in a debate. Therefore, I will not post anything else here.