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Offline sash

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Salah in Jewish culture
« on: January 20, 2016, 07:27:29 PM »
Dear Joseph,

Don't you think that we Muslims are following the tradition of early Jewish & Christian form of prayer for e.g number of salah per day, units of salah, folding hands, or placing hand on chest etc. this might be the practice of all prophets & messengers. Then how can we have no form of prayer like mentioned in your article. I know Quran is silent on this matter,  would like to know from your point of view after reading  the below link.

Please read this an interesting study by Ben Abrahamson
http://www.alsadiqin.org/en/index.php?title=Category:Prayer_Positions


Thanks
Sash



Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 08:30:05 PM »
Dear Sash,

As-salamu alaykum

Welcome to the forum!

Can you please kindly share with me evidence from any of my writings where I have stated / implied that there isn't any need for form in our prayers. If I have stated this, I will address immediately as this has never been my intention.  :)

Of course, I have stated numerous times in my writings that the Quran does not prescribe a specific form or utterance for prayer (which is a fact) and I have also posited the possible reasons as to why [1]. However, this as I trust that you will agree, is arguably rather different to suggesting that there is no form whatsoever.

In a number of my writings, I have expressed the need to assimilate [2].

In my own personal account of how I pray, I have even recognised the following:

"Also, the prayer tradition was clearly in situ even at the time of the Prophet’s ministry (2:43). The Quran did not need to invent a new practice but only to discern where it felt it was generally necessary with certain details. (qibla direction, wudu details etc)." [3]

I have also captured an incident where in a particular incident, I adapted my prayer. [4]

Finally, in another article, I have clearly stated that a Jewish prayer is in complete resonance with the Quranic verses on the requirements of prayer [5]

In summary, what the Quran does not provide is the exact form and content of the prayer as it is prayed today. That does not imply (a) That there is no prayer or (b) That there is no form whatsoever. It is clear from the article [6] below that the Quran does indeed provide guidance to aspects of the prayer and what it expects.

I respectfully trust that this will aid you to clarify your understanding of my humble position.

Kind regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm
[2] THE IMPORTANCE OF CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/congregational%20prayer%20FM3.htm
[3] How do I Pray Ritual Salaat from the Quran?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=486.0
[4] A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH PRAYER AT MADINAT AL-ZAHRA (AL ANDALUS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20at%20al-andalus%20FM3.htm
[5] A JEWISH PRAYER IN COMPLETE RESONANCE WITH QURANIC VERSES ON THE REQUIREMENTS OF PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/jewish%20prayer%20FM3.htm
[6] PRAY AS WE HAVE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO PRAY - USING VERSE 2.239 AS SUPPORT FOR A FIXED FORM OF PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/pray%20as%20we%20have%20taught%20you%20how%20to%20pray%20-%20using%20a%20verse%20to%20support%20a%20fixed%20form%20of%20prayer%20FM3.htm


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Student

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2016, 02:56:11 PM »
Salamun Alaykum,
Brother Joseph,

I'm excited to post my very first question through QM forum and looking forward to beneficial and more importantly application of what I learn, inshallah. So, my question is, as my family has women too, Alhumdulillah, what Jewish woman do during their mensuration cycles? Do they pray or not? through out OT, NT and presently?

I appreciate your candid and tolerant approach and immense divine scriptural knowledge you're disseminating for the benefit of truth seekers, May Allah swt reward you and your family with Imaan and increase it every single day  :)

Jazak Allahu Khairan!
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Hassan A

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 01:27:09 PM »
Salaam Student,

Brother Joseph Islam has made the following statement on another category (tittled: Debates wth Jospeh Islam):

Given my ever increasing commitments and ongoing research, I will be devoting my time primarily to writing new articles (as requested by popular demand), sharing my research, papers and a plethora of notes in published document format, sharing thoughts on social media and answering general queries as best I can, God willing and time permitting.
For the foreseeable future, I will not be allocating my time in engaging in any debates which form the least of my priorities at present.


So I am not sure when brother Joseph will answer your question. But if you don't mind I will like to take a crack at your question.

You asked:

Quote
my question is, as my family has women too, Alhumdulillah, what Jewish woman do during their mensuration cycles? Do they pray or not? through out OT, NT and presently?

I can't comment on the OT and the NT, but, speaking from Quran perspective, women are instruct to uphold religious ritual (prayer, fasting, etc) while menstruating.:

http://quransmessage.com/articles/menstruation%20FM3.htm

Hopefully other forum members will give you an answer from the perspective of OT and NT.


By the way, I would like to welcome you to this forum. Wer're glad to have you here. Fell free to post your questions/concerns/thoughts and I and others will do our best to address them.

Peace.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 04:38:43 AM »
Salaam,

I understand Joseph's stance on the matter and his article has shown evidence from the Quran, but on a personal level, I feel unclean whilst in a state of menstruation so do not engage in formal prayer.
I do however fast as it is a separate ritual.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2016, 05:28:56 AM »
I can understand that completely, sister Truthseeker. I tried to pray while in those days and I just couldn't do it. I felt unclean and got up. I thought I was the only one feeling that way. :)
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2016, 06:21:00 AM »

Sorry the article I was referring to was in fact a Q&A with Joseph:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=163.0

The article link provided by Hassan A, was 'Can menstruating women fast?' and I agree with it.

Offline Hassan A

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 06:22:28 AM »
Salaam sisters Seraphina and Truthseeker,

If, while menstruating, you (and all women) are unable to perform religious rituals for hygienic or pain-related reason, then I believe you all are justified in abstaining form said rituals. With respect to brother Joseph Islam article pertaining to this issue, I don't think he was making the argument that women must perform the religious rituals during their menses, rather he was simply pointing out the fact that the Quran does not prohibit them from participating in those rituals therefore if a woman wishes to uphold religious rituals during that time she is welcome to do so from a Quran perspective (and vice versa). But I completely agree with the gist of what both you sisters are saying, which is that if a woman doesn't feel comfortable performing the religious rituals during her menses then she is more welcome to abstain from them.:

"... Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship..." [Quran 2:185].

Peace.

Offline Seraphina

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 09:00:50 AM »
Thank you my dear brother Hassan A., I needed to hear that :) my conscience felt triubled many times, bcs I was afraid it will appear as if I'm neglecting my duties.
God bless you,
Seraphina
"Say:"O my slaves who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Offline Student

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2016, 02:59:44 AM »
Walekumus Salaam,
Brother Hassan,


Thank you and Jazak Allah Khair for your time in addressing my question . This topic "Abstaining from Salah during mensuration" in my humble view falls in the same category and line of argument where Brother Joseph lend his support and assert his position in favor of 5 daily prayers on one of the key criteria of "A living tradition was always in situ" and "Such a practice is learnt as best practice from en-masse propagation, generation to generation" among women folks. When I mentioned the absence of menses as an excuse to the prayers in the Quran, the reaction on my wife's face mirrors those of other two sisters that kindly shared their feelings. This "practice of abstaining" we may very well trace back to the people of the book from their books and since brother Joseph's writings indicate a strong grasp in understanding previous divine scriptures I earnestly request him to personally take some time out from his busy schedule to address this issue thoroughly academically and historically. I hope brother Joseph don't let me down as this subject is not only important to me it is extremely essential to our women folks.


Hope you don't really mind brother Hassan for my pressing on with the issue. Looking forward to hear from brother Joseph, Inshallah  :D


Thanks,
Student.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2016, 05:06:57 PM »
Dear Student,

Wa alaikum assalam

Please kindly note that in my writings; I have only gone as far as to say:

"Hence there is no explicit or implicit verse in the Quran that prohibits women from praying or fasting during their monthly condition." [1]

This does not mean a women should / must pray if she feels unclean or not in a sufficient state of cleanliness to pray. In circumstances such as these, a woman is not forgoing ritual prayer because she doesn't want to pray, but her intention is not to approach formal prayer for her Lord in a state of what she feels / understands (rightly or wrongly) is, utter uncleanliness. This is a matter for God to judge and the woman's actual intentions. However, equally, if a woman decides to pray, from a Quran's perspective at least, this does not appear to amount to a sin / prohibition. That is the remit of my humble perspective.

As regards the Torah, yes indeed, the OT Bible is clear to express that a woman is ceremonially unclean whilst she is menstruating (Hebrew: Niddah). However, The Law such as in Leviticus 15:19-33 also focuses on prohibiting sexual activity / contact during this period and arguably, not ritual prayer. However, Jewish practice / rabbinical laws appear to interpret 'Niddah' as also a period of ritual impurity too. [2]

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Can Women Pray and Fast During Menstruation?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=163.msg426#msg426
[2] Tirzah Meacham (leBeit Yoreh), Jewish Women's Archive, [online] http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/female-purity-niddah; accessed [21st May 2016]


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2016, 04:33:52 AM »
peace,

This question was asked by someone on free-minds recently and this post convinced them:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9608512.msg387969#msg387969

It approaches it from another angle.

Offline Student

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Re: Salah in Jewish culture
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2016, 03:50:38 PM »
Salamun Alaykum,
Brother Joseph,

I'm greatly indebted to you and relieved at the same time after your clarification from previous scriptures. Jazak Allahu Khairan Kaseera!

Thank you and Jazak Allahu Khairan brother Wakas for sharing your perspective too.

Ramadan Mubarak in advance to all forum members, hope to sight the crescent on Sunday evening inshallah  :)

Peace,
Student
Thanks,
~ Student