Verse 17:107 >> Prostrate on chin or forehead?

[Sstikstof]

Regarding Verse 17:107, is it talking about prostrating on chin or forehead?

[A.H.A]

That verse is referring to a form of Jewish prostration (full-length prostration); as the verse states:"....Those who were given knowledge before it....", "those who were given knowledge before it" refers to Jews.

[Sstikstof]

So it is not for us & we prostrate as we do with forehead?

[A.H.A]

This form is not necessary, the word itself has different meanings.
See:
What Is Quranic Sujud (Prostration)

[Sstikstof]

Thanks for info

[Wakas]

It's not as simple as that.

The phrase in 17:107 "fall to the chin SJD" is seen by most as an idiom, describing the manner of the SJD.

The idiom "fall to the chin" (as also used in 17:109) means with extreme humility. Quote:

Professor Mustansir Mir in "Verbal Idioms of The Quran", cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom implying extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in The Quran means to humble oneself before God, and cites Classical Arabic poem by Imru al-Qays about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin". It is unlikely a tree would actually fall down due to a heavy downpour of rain, but it is possible to take it as a physicall fall.

Source.

[Sstikstof]

It's not as simple as that.

The phrase in 17:107 "fall to the chin SJD" is seen by most as an idiom, describing the manner of the SJD.

The idiom "fall to the chin" (as also used in 17:109) means with extreme humility. Quote:

Professor Mustansir Mir in "Verbal Idioms of The Quran", cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom implying extreme humility, for the chin represents pride, it is something to be held high, and to fall down on one's chin is to abase oneself, and when used in The Quran means to humble oneself before God, and cites Classical Arabic poem by Imru al-Qays about how mighty trees were humbled by a strong downpour of rain, and they "fell to the chin". It is unlikely a tree would actually fall down due to a heavy downpour of rain, but it is possible to take it as a physicall fall.

Source.

Thanks for the info, But
We aint talking about how to fall on prostration, rather we are talking about how to do prostration after falling. This is the difference. Question was after falling will it be forehead or just chin!

[Wakas]

Unfortunately, it seems you have missed my point - there may be no fall to begin with.

Your original post was an either/or logical fallacy.


In any case, you seem to be saying: if we take it as a literal physical fall, then is the chosen meaning of SJD as prostration to the chin or forehead?

Quran clearly says chin.

An interesting question to then ponder is would you be perfectly comfortable doing prostration to the chin personally, and in the company of others? If one is hesitant or the answer is no, then that might be worrying considering Quran seems to imply it is perfectly fine, and it would be one of very few explicitly approved physical manifestations of how to SJD.

[Sstikstof]

You are expert of complicating religion that i have acknowledged. Im not that smart to answer your alien/non-realizable interpretations.
I only seek easy way as Quran is easy to learn. Context of the verse is saying as what Aha said,
This form is not necessary, the word itself has different meanings.

Quran 17:107-109
Say, "Believe in it or do not believe. Indeed, those who were given knowledge before it - when it is recited to them, they fall upon their faces in prostration,
And they say, "Exalted is our Lord! Indeed, the promise of our Lord has been fulfilled."
And they fall upon their faces weeping, and the Qur'an increases them in humble submission.

[Sstikstof]

Unfortunately, it seems you have missed my point - there may be no fall to begin with.

Your original post was an either/or logical fallacy.


In any case, you seem to be saying: if we take it as a literal physical fall, then is the chosen meaning of SJD as prostration to the chin or forehead?

Quran clearly says chin.

An interesting question to then ponder is would you be perfectly comfortable doing prostration to the chin personally, and in the company of others? If one is hesitant or the answer is no, then that might be worrying considering Quran seems to imply it is perfectly fine, and it would be one of very few explicitly approved physical manifestations of how to SJD.

And I take your opinion, actually the verse is not indicating prostrate on chins. It is a phrase. In out language, It means to be completely submissive with showing humiliation by falling the head down. Its like the phrase "cats & dogs". I hope you would understand. Cant have better word in English.

[Wakas]

I think I understand -  you are now thinking its an idiom, like I said earlier.

"Raining cats and dogs" is an idiom, if that's what you were referring to. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of idioms in English. Arabic has plenty also.


You might want to bear in mind logical fallacies when trying to understand Quran:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white