My humble apologies!

[Sstikstof]

Salaam Sstikof,

You said:

There are more differences between Javed Ahmed Ghamidi & Joseph Islam's view.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, in my opinion.

Our job as Muslims is to ALWAYS vigorously scrutinize/critically analyzing any and all views to see whether they're in accordance with the truth and with the general message of the Quran. It remains our duty as believers/Muslims to seek the best meaning from what we hear by scrutinize and evaluating all arguments/views (regardless of whom they're made by) and afterwards follow ‘what is best’ (39:18) (i.e. which argument presents the best possible evidence/facts and is compatible with logic and reason).

The Quran acknowledges that we (as mere humans) will/may derive different meanings from it, and states that those who have understanding are the ones who follow the best meaning in it:

"Those who listen to the Word and follow the best meaning in it; those are the ones whom God has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." [Qur’an 39:18]

As the above verse clearly insinuates: some meanings are better than others. And as humans we naturally will derive multiple meanings from each verse, but only the best are to be validated and followed—this will demonstrate righteousness of character.

So with respect to the views you've alluded to which brothers Joseph Islam and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi differ on, it remains your/our responsibility to vigorously scrutinize/evaluate/analyse each view then accept whichever view is in accordance with the message of the Quran (and in accordance with logic and reason). And then put our faith/trust in God.

Peace.

By seeking best meaning, if we do burden the religion mentally & physically, what's the point of seeking that? In Quran it has also been told that we are weak in our own sense & nature. So, what is the point of having different interpretations as Quran clearly stated that it is an unambiguous scripture. While seeking to find best meaning, ain't we make this more in ambiguity? After all, we gotta admit that we ain't saints which reminds me verse 4:31. Aren't we complicating religion which is also against an article in this website? You gotta think about it bro. After all we ain't messenger of GOD to become perfect or saint. We are just trying.....

[Star]

This exchange is getting mildly confusing, but I get what you're saying.

The Quran says its verses are made clear for people who think. The implicit Quranic verses have to be considered through the lens of the explicit verses (3:7). This means that issues are made clear when people consider all the verses on a topic. When they do so, the "best meaning" in the verses becomes reasonably clear, so that there is little doubt in what it is.

Some scholars aren't so good at taking into account all the verses on a specific topic. They come to the Quran with preconceived ideas, seeking to find verses that confirm these ideas. This is why their interpretations aren't the "best meaning." However, I've found  that Joseph Islam's articles always take into account pretty much every single verse on a given topic. They're not written with a definitive conclusion in mind.

Generally, when multiple verses on a topic are taken together, the best meaning becomes clear and there is little need to debate it anymore. However, sometimes things are still slightly open-ended. For example, on the head-covering issue, the word "khimar" has multiple meanings. This shows that the Quran adapts to different styles of living and that any type of decent clothing is appropriate, whether or not the hair is covered. There is no need to assign a specific dress code.

Hope I made things a little clearer...?

[Hassan A]

Salaam Sstikstof,

You said:

By seeking best meaning, if we do burden the religion mentally & physically, what's the point of seeking that?

With all due respect, I think you might have misunderstood my previous comment. There is a difference between trying to understand the Quran on a deeper level analytically/thematically, and eliciting finer details- thereby burdening the faithful. I am arguing for the former.

what is the point of having different interpretations as Quran clearly stated that it is an unambiguous scripture.

But who is to say which interpretation is the correct one? Even among Quran-centric individuals there exists some differences of interpretation. In fact, your previous reply on this thread in which you highlighted the difference of views between brother Joseph Islam and Javed Ahmed attests to this fact. This, in my opinion, is also a fact attested by the Quran itself:

"Those who listen to the Word and follow the best meaning in it; those are the ones whom God has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding." [Qur’an 39:18]

what is the point of having different interpretations as Quran clearly stated that it is an unambiguous scripture.

While it is true that the Quran is clear in its general commandments and laws, we (including the disbelievers) are, nonetheless, encouraged to deeply research, evaluate, ponder and to intrinsically scrutinize the Quran as part of one's intellectual endeavors whilst seeking the truth and guidance. (see: 4:82, 23:68, 38:29, 47:24). And just like in every other area in life there will inevitably exists different interpretations/views. But we, as believers, are instructed to analyze every interpretation and uphold the one which is consistent with the general message of the Quran (as well as with logic and reason).

While seeking to find best meaning, ain't we make this more in ambiguity?... Aren't we complicating religion which is also against an article in this website?

Again, there is a difference between trying to understand the Quran on a deeper level analytically/thematically so as to insure that the faithful are properly upholding God's commandments and eliciting finer details. I am not suggesting that we read too much into ambiguous verses and draw fanciful conclusion from them which will only burden the faithful. Rather I was simply making the point that upon every able-bodied Muslims is the responsibility to deeply study the Quran and share his/her understanding/interpretation of the Quran (or several verses of it) with the Muslim community, and upon the community will be the responsibility to analyze/scrutinize said interpretation/s and to uphold it IF it is consistent with the generality of the Quran.

[Duster]

Shalom  / peace all>>>

I have been studying bro Joseph's and Ghamidi's works (those translated in English) for some time now and I'll tell you this... there are far more similarities between the two of them then differences. They both are great scholars and studying the Quran deeply. For example - they agree that there is no second coming of Jesus >>>>or that there is no concept of punishment in the grave.>>>>

They agree on so many other things like insurance, intoxicants, captial punishment, images, music etc. They agree hadith is corrupted in parts and it cannot be taken as authoritative>>>>> However - Main difference - bro Ghamidi says Sunnah is authoritative but then defines it his own way >>>that is what is included what is not... This is subjective.

Bro Joseph on the other hand distinguishes hadith from sunnah like bro Ghamidi but then still says its subservient to the Quran and not authoritative in the same way but should be followed as best practice if it has direct support from the Quran like prayer. Bro Joseph says nothing is authoritative but the Quran but takes 'Sunnah' that has direct roots from the Quran as having greater importance.... This is correct in my view >>>>

Even on head covering ...bro Joseph's hijaab article is so beautiful but doesn't say you shouldn't wear the veil. The point of the article is missed by many I think>>>>Whereas he argues very well how hijaab is used in the Quran ..>>> he still says the below... Note the second para in particlar!>>>

The above discussion should facilitate a better understanding of the Quran’s directives. There is no specific reference to covering of the hair and the Arabic word 'Hijaab' has never been used to signify nor even insinuate this.  However, if an individual feels that their particular covering lends to better modesty (including hair and face covering) and with respect to prevailing customs, then this is their prerogative. One needs to be careful however not to override the Quran’s injunctions with a view to favour or seek overtly liberalist positions and also not to present overtly repressive directives when they are not decreed by scripture.
 
However, one can argue that bedecking the hair in public (beautifying oneself to an extent which can become a cause of attraction) needs to be carefully considered under the broad Arabic term 'zeenat'. This is indeed a subjective area and I remain non committal to define 'zeenat' as I do not see any reason to when the Quran has not explicitly done so. Many may feel that such bedecking would fall under the scope of 'zeenat'. If so, the directive is not to display this beauty and adornment to those other than the people listed in verse 24:31. (See section 1)

>>>>>>If I've seen two scholars from the traditional thought and Quran-centric thought who are so close on so many interpretations its bro Joseph and Ghamdi .... Its the similarity of using the Quran to find best meaning that bridges this gap>>>>>>just my opinion....

[Sstikstof]

I agree on deeper reflections on Qur'an and I agree that javed ghamidi and Joseph Islam are having best interpretations ever. That's not my main argument. I gotta admit first of all I hate ghamidis student shehjad Selim because of his nonsense interpretations which even goes against ghamidis. And for deeper reflections everybody gotta take the limit of that of about how many deeper is reliable, aren't we going into alien interpretations or not? There is differences too. Quranic meanings can be found from other parts of it. It is a serious suggestive clue that we gotta bear into mind. May be this can lead us prevention of going that deeper. At the end of the day Qur'an is unambiguous scripture.

[maverick83pk]

Dear Duster,

I concur with your analysis. Both JI and JG are very much quran-centric scholars, JI's stance is better that Quran is Qazi over Sunnah (excluding hadees hearsay ofcourse), whereas JG says Quran &  Sunnah (excluding hadees hearsay ofcourse) are noth Qazis. This is near me, wrong and not supported by Quran.

So thumbs up for your analysis bro

[Star]

I don't understand this Javed Ghamidi person's viewpoints. He's kind of lingering between accepting hadiths and sunnah and not accepting them. He needs to make up his mind. It's quite clear from reading the Quran that hadiths and sunnah have no religious authority (although they can be studied to understand history and culture).

[Sstikstof]

I don't understand this Javed Ghamidi person's viewpoints. He's kind of lingering between accepting hadiths and sunnah and not accepting them. He needs to make up his mind. It's quite clear from reading the Quran that hadiths and sunnah have no religious authority (although they can be studied to understand history and culture).

that's exactly what I was trying to say

[good logic]

Peace.

Traditional Islam( or your parents religion/any religion) will cling to you even if you let go of it.

True Islam( No religion implied) requires cleaning your mind with the help of the Creator and his message by sincerely seeking Him ,given time, patience,perseverance,a lot of study, killing your ego, humbling yourself,filling your heart with the "love for GOD and all His creations"...

The cleansing has got to go deeper and deeper, so deep to" where you were even not aware of".

The worse scenario is stopping part way thinking you got to the truth? Keep going until GOD" lifts you from the ground", because our natural instinct is to "stick to the ground" and follow our own opinions and those of our idols!!!

GOD bless.
Peace.

[maverick83pk]

Dear SStikof and Mia666,

His stance about Sunnah and hadees being different is very much clear if you delve deeper into his research and methodology articles and this is in-line with JI's views, however, you both are correct, that sometimes (in his tv shows) mostly he is seen to be contradicting his stance and takes hadees for authority (sometimes).

I guess the problem is more than just the methodology, you see, JG is from a society of Pakistan, which is full of extremists and people are ignorant, bigoted and egotistical here, im also from Pakistan. His stance on Salman Taseer's episode where he openly condemned Mumtaz Qadri the murderer's act, he received death threats from all over the country and he had to flee to Malaysia for that purpose.

I think, i might be wrong, that the day when he openly states his stance, his TV shows will be banned as most of the public likes to remain in ignorance due to cognitive dissonance disorder. This is why, near me, he appears to switchover in his stances while on public forums.

[maverick83pk]

Dear SStikof and Mia666,

You must have observed that most quran-centric people, out of fear, like to remain anonymous, this is okay as long as they propel the arguments from Quran. How many Quran-centric TV channels you see broadcasting? Zero! How many sectarian religious channels you see? Many!

We are going through a critical era, where internet has made access to hidden information thanks Almighty for that and people like me have switched to QC side now Alhamdolillah! Before that these decadent ulama used to hide behind holy smoke and parroting "arabic this arabic that". Not anymore now, but centuries of ignorance and humongous masses will not be swayed away easily and in a couple of years. This will take time and will indeed be very very risky as QC people are declared heretic by traditionalists fanatic fatawa.

We have to see ground reality and current affairs as well.

[Sstikstof]

U got a good point, I myself got abused so many times during preaching the quran-centric views, but i didnt go that far. Muslims here are so emotional that they can do anything if something goes against their views.  . And for moderated muslims here, they dont actually follow religion & got ignorant behavior.

[zara]

Salaam good logic,
I really like your statement about cleansing our minds.Of all the things you listed,I find killing the ego to be the most difficult.
May Allah help us all to achieve soul purification.

[good logic]

Peace zara, brothers and sisters.

Of course,killing our ego is the hardest task in life. All of us can sometimes be guilty of claiming we have the truth and hence hold the upper ground above others?

 Those loyal to GOD Alone, those who are sincerely  searching to find out why they are here. Is there a GOD? Who is GOD?Did HE send a message...? i.e what is the truth regarding "religion? can be from any race or religion!!!

 If we happen to believe Qoran is GOD s message , then GOD Alone is the teacher,guide,,,  GOD Alone is what unites all those who believe in Him and His scriptures if He chooses to.( Notice I say scriptures).

Please allow me to highlight something that was made clear to me in GOD s message:

1- Those that are loyal to GOD Alone can be from any religion,any race ,any community.

2- There are many ways that lead to salvation: "Those who believe GOD( they can be any of the above in 1) ,believe in the last day( Accountability) and do good deeds , they have nothing to fear nor ... i.e they will be saved.

3- GOD has left a lot of how to live this life up to us. We are diverse in race, colour and traditions. We have even been given different "rules" by GOD according to our time and place. Hence ,not agreeing on everything is normal. The main commandments are made clear to us by instinct and in all the scriptures. The basics are clear and are the same in all GOD s scriptures.

4- Accepting the "religion" from the humans is GOD s job, not ours. We concentrate on ourselves and make sure we are sincerely being loyal to GOD Alone. GOD does the rest. GOD will unite or disperse.

5-We must not be like those who break up into sects, just because they see irrelevant differences in people:
2:94
Say, "If the abode of the Hereafter is reserved for you at God, to the exclusion of all other people, then you should long for death, if you are truthful."
قُل إِن كانَت لَكُمُ الدّارُ الـٔاخِرَةُ عِندَ اللَّهِ خالِصَةً مِن دونِ النّاسِ فَتَمَنَّوُا المَوتَ إِن كُنتُم صٰدِقينَ

GOD is saying here the door is open to anyone!!!!

May the Lord help us stay loyal to Him Alone,may we trust Him to sort out your plans/problems/concerns...His promise to those who really believe in Him and believe His word will come true.

May the Lord unite all His true servants and keep them under His protection.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Star]

I am currently attempting to applaud Good Logic while simultaneously typing.

There are people devoted to God in pretty much every religious denomination, even in generally polytheistic religions like Hinduism.

And I've noticed that devoted Christians who focus on the concept of one God (even though they still believe in the Trinity) often get their prayers answered. There are very accomplished religious healers and believers in that sect. Even though they believe that Jesus is God's son, they seem to believe it out of ignorance, because God definitely seems to love them despite their Trinitarian belief system.

God only gets mad when you are aware that you're doing something wrong but still refuse to correct it.

Sstikstof: I get what you said about people overreacting. You know what I once saw on a Salafist "Islamic" website? This sentence: "He who has rejected the Sunnah (as divine guidance) is a kafir and an apostate from Islam."

Sheesh!

This is also the website whose administrator advertised the death penalty for apostasy. So he (admin) was basically stating that anyone who is Quran-centric should be EXECUTED.

I honestly thought this whole Quranic belief system would be easier to spread. Apparently not.

Mia