Proofs that PUNISHMENT IN THE GRAVE is REAL

[good logic]

Peace ZKAB90.

You said,quote:

I think I have posted many verses that suggest a punishment in the barzakh.

I have not seen you quote any verse/s that suggest "punishment in the barzakh"!!!

Also, I understand "Barzakh" does not mean a place,but a barrier,i.e once dead you cannot come back to this life.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[ZKAB90]

Peace ZKAB90.

You said,quote:

I think I have posted many verses that suggest a punishment in the barzakh.

I have not seen you quote any verse/s that suggest "punishment in the barzakh"!!!

Also, I understand "Barzakh" does not mean a place,but a barrier,i.e once dead you cannot come back to this life.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

A barrier in which is possible to suffer torture.

[Hassan A]

Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.

1) What (if any) proof or Quranic verse can you offer me to support you argument that the souls, while in the grave, is alive?
2) Furthermore, if the soul is solely alive and not wrecking any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due reward

I think the punishment in the Barzakh is merely due to the evil acts, that is, the disobedience; and the Hell is the punishment due to the disbelief.

What is disbelief except a collection of evil acts.....
Furthermore, as I've asked before, would it not seem unjust for Allah to punish us (the soul or the body) without first having brought us to a fair trial for our doings?

....The fair trial is only make in the Judgement Day to humiliate you ahead the others, while your sentence is been choose before you're born.

What? Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?

[ZKAB90]

Secondly, if, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.

1) What (if any) proof or Quranic verse can you offer me to support you argument that the souls, while in the grave, is alive?

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

What? Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?

The words "just" and "unfair" have surely differents meaning to God.

[Hassan A]

Salam ZKAB90,

Apologies for the late reply; I have been preoccupied with school.

To recap from were we left off:

You made the following statement:

The punishment that will occurr in the barzakh will affect only the soul, not the body. So, probably the punishment will be only a nightmare, and this is in line whith the soul affected by punishment.

And you cited the following Qurnic verse to support that statement:

Do not think of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive...[Quran 3:169]

To which I asked:

If, as you've said, it is only the soul and not the body which will receive punishment in barzakh, then do you also believe that Allah is referring to the souls and not the bodies of the martyrs when He says of them that they are not dead, but rather alive?:

To which you replied by saying:

The soul is alive [read: conscious] that after the Judgment Day they will be amongst the winners, that is, they will enter into Paradise.

And with respect, that reply failed to answer the question of: If the soul is solely alive and not reaping any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due punishment?

Furthermore, albeit unrelated to the main topic at hand, you made the following statements regarding predetermination:

...your sentence is been choose before you're born.

To which I responded by asking:

Are you arguing that our sentence has already been decided for us before birth? So if I (God forbid) were sent to hell it is not because of any (evil) acts which I may have done on my own accord but rather because Allah has already willed it? Does that not seem unjust and unfair?

To which you then responded by saying:

The words "just" and "unfair" have surely different meaning to God.

With respect, you can cut it however you will.....it still seems unjust to me that Allah would have already predetermined out sentence for us (assuming by sentence you me punishments).
1)Of what purpose does life serve if Allah has already predetermined our course? Of what purpose do the many tests Allah places on us serve if He has already decided the outcome for us?
2) If Allah has already predetermined our lives for us, then can I really be held accountable for my evil ways?
3)Why would Allah be furious towards some of histories greatest tyrants (such as Pharaoh, Hitler, etc) and condemn them to the hell fire if they were simply carrying out the will of Allah?

[ZKAB90]

And with respect, that reply failed to answer the question of: If the soul is solely alive and not reaping any rewards till after judgement day, then can the same not be said of the souls of the evil doers? i.e they, while in their graves, will be alive but only after judgement has been passed on them will they receive their due punishment?

Salaam Hassan;

The reward it is to the righteous only, and the peace they will experience is like an appetiser; and for the wrong doers their punishment in my opinion will be "only" a nightmare, but a horrorific one, a taste of what they will experience in the Hell. This is in line with the alleged punishment in the grave [that will occurr in the barzakh or the parallel dimension after death].

 

With respect, you can cut it however you will.....it still seems unjust to me that Allah would have already predetermined out sentence for us (assuming by sentence you me punishments).
1)Of what purpose does life serve if Allah has already predetermined our course? Of what purpose do the many tests Allah places on us serve if He has already decided the outcome for us?
2) If Allah has already predetermined our lives for us, then can I really be held accountable for my evil ways?
3)Why would Allah be furious towards some of histories greatest tyrants (such as Pharaoh, Hitler, etc) and condemn them to the hell fire if they were simply carrying out the will of Allah?

In my opinion we can't compare our cognitive standards with the Allah's ones. Maybe we don't understand the purpose of life [the Angels asked the same question to Allah and He answered that He know more than them] but He does. So the free will and predestination are or difficult to us to understand or we have not reach the answer yet.

Regards

[Hassan A]

Salam ZKAB90,

for the wrong doers their punishment in my opinion will be "only" a nightmare, but a horrorific one

Can you kindly point me to which verse/s support you believe that their punishment will only be a psychological one?
Furthermore, I am still having a hard time believing that Allah (the most just) would punish a person/s without having first given them a fair trial. As I asked before: If the individual is to undergo punishment while in his/her grave (without first been given a fair trial) then what purpose does judgement day serve?

In my opinion we can't compare our cognitive standards with the Allah's ones. Maybe we don't understand the purpose of life [the Angels asked the same question to Allah and He answered that He know more than them] but He does. So the free will and predestination are or difficult to us to understand or we have not reach the answer yet.

I very much respect you opinion. But, for me, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of Allah having already predetermined every one of our acts (as well as our abode in the hereafter), for reasons I have explained before.

If you are interested, here are several good articles pertaining to the subject of Allah's Will:

http://tolueislam.org/gods-will-dr-mansoor-alam/
http://islamicdawn.com/tragedies-and-afflictions-the-book-of-destiny-g-a-parwez-translated-by-khalid-sayyed/
http://resurgentislam.com/wp-content/uploads/IQBAL-AND-TAQDIR-By-Dr.-Mansoor-Alam.pdf

Peace to you.

[ZKAB90]

Can you kindly point me to which verse/s support you believe that their punishment will only be a psychological one?

Salaam, It is only a conjecture, I don't know for sure.

Furthermore, I am still having a hard time believing that Allah (the most just) would punish a person/s without having first given them a fair trial. As I asked before: If the individual is to undergo punishment while in his/her grave (without first been given a fair trial) then what purpose does judgement day serve?

Argument no. 7:

What would be the purpose of an appointed Day of Judgment if after death, one were to receive their punishment in their graves before the trial had even taken place? Conviction before trial is not a concept of justice and God is the most Just.

In effect, this would render the Day of Judgment meaningless, a fundamental belief posited by the Quran underscored by numerous Surahs and verses. God repeatedly informs His creation that He will never be unjust to his slaves and not an atom's weight of injustice will take place. All actions will be recorded in a clear record (10:61; 34:3; 99:7­8; 4:40).

Response:

We can't compare human courts and trials to God's Judgments. God doesn't have to hold any trial in order to punish someone. He already knows "all the evidence" and takes appropriate measures whenever He Wills.

Also, the person raising this argument himself would admit that God has punished people in this life for their sins as is clear in the Qur'an (e.g. how He punished the people of Prophets Noah, Lot, Salih, etc.). So does he also object to those Qur'anic passages saying "It's not fair for Allah to punish them before the Day of Judgment"? I doubt he would.

So why then when it comes to the punishment of the grave? There appears to be double standards at play here.

Source: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=17588

If you are interested, here are several good articles pertaining to the subject of Allah's Will:

http://tolueislam.org/gods-will-dr-mansoor-alam/
http://islamicdawn.com/tragedies-and-afflictions-the-book-of-destiny-g-a-parwez-translated-by-khalid-sayyed/
http://resurgentislam.com/wp-content/uploads/IQBAL-AND-TAQDIR-By-Dr.-Mansoor-Alam.pdf

Thanks, but I can't take people like Ghulam Ahmed Pervez being credible due to their Neo-Mu'tazila thought. Read:

Rational Interpretation of the Quran

Parwez's writings are associated with modernism.[18] He supported Iqbal's enterprise of harmonizing the Quran with the natural sciences, and translated those verses in the Quran which are generally associated with "miracles", "angels" and "jinn" rationally as metaphors, without appealing to the supernatural.

He also questioned the virgin birth of Jesus and the miraculous interpretations of that event, arguing that the words describing the communication received by Zechariah (priest) with regards to the birth of John the Baptist are identical to the communication received by Mary concerning the birth of Jesus. Since there is no difference in the language, he asked, why would one be accepted as having been conceived via virgin-birth while the other not? He also suggested that just because the Quran does not name Jesus’ father, this is not an argument in support of virgin birth, as the Quran also omits such details regarding the history of other prophets.

While Parwez admitted the limitations of human rational faculties, which can not grasp the source and nature of the Divine, he stressed that the content of revelation can be understood rationally. He argued that unlike traditional dogmas which justify their authority using blind faith, "iman" as outlined in the Quran, forbids blind faith and requires intellectual certainty, expecting the reader to think critically and use their powers of understanding.