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Offline ZKAB90

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There is no punishment of grave as per Quran. Please read Bro Joseph Islam's article on Punisment in Grave you will be enlightened.

Hi, I know that.

But, however, I read an apologist article claiming that some words may indicates a punishment. For example, the "then" and the "twice" of the 9:101 and the verse which is talking that the dead in the way of Allah are living ones, and not dead.

So, from a Quran-alone perspective it is only speculation talking about a punishment in the grave. However, maybe this understanding of the Qur'an didn't considered these words. I do not know and I read the article of J. Islam. Sooner or later all people will see if it true or not. Actually I say 60% no and 40% yes. I'm confuse.

Offline Nura

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Salam ZKAB90

I sincerely want to ask you, Hassan A has kindly provided evidence from the quran indicating that the prophet did not possess information about the end of times.

So, if we are to believe that Quran is the word of Allah, then Allah is telling us that His prophet does not know when the end of times will arrive or of any prior signs.

The hadiths on the other hand say the prophet knew about it and has talked about the signs.

I ask you, will you believe Allah's word? : the prophet did not know
or Hadith? : Prophet knew.

Do you realize what you are trying to do? If you can prove that the prophet knew about the end of times and talked about it, then Allah was lying in the Quran (Astagfirullah). If what u r saying, that the hadiths are from the prophet, and they are true, then the verses of the Quran are false. Because either the prophet knew or he did not.

The Quran says he did not, Hadith says he did. So, what is it going to be? Will you believe what Allah says in the Quran? or will you say the Quran contains false information about the prophet, which would mean the Quran conains falsehood, and Allah lied in the Quran( Astagfirullah)

There is no way around it.

Regarding, grave punishment, I will post in that thread about my point of view
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline ZKAB90

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Because either the prophet knew or he did not.

I understand your position. Words are importants and if the Prophet knowed it by hitself or by another revelation, this is the difference.

However I'm more interested in the "punishment in the grave" topic that the Ahadith.

It was just for showing that some Hadith can be vague but maybe, at the same time, correct.



Offline Nura

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Because either the prophet knew or he did not.

I understand your position. Words are importants and if the Prophet knowed it by hitself or by another revelation, this is the difference.

However I'm more interested in the "punishment in the grave" topic that the Ahadith.

It was just for showing that some Hadith can be vague but maybe, at the same time, correct.


How will the Prophet know about religion by himself ? that is not possible. Things about religion was revealed to him by Allah, the Quran was brought to the Prophet by Gabriel. The Quran did not become revealed by itself to the prophet, the messages from God where conveyed by Gabriel.

By another revelation? so revelation outside the Quran? so Hadith is revelation?

Even if for argument's sake I agree that Hadith is revelation, then hadith and Quran both are revelation. But the problem remains, God was then lying in one of His revelations, i.e Quran!

Look, you can believe in Hadith or other sources all you want, but when they contradict the Quran, then one of the sources is untrue.
even if Hadith is revelation, then the Quran contains falsehood.

The Quran says prophet did not know, then to believe otherwise is to say the Quran contains falsehood.

The problem with Hadith is that, Hadith corpus itself does not say it is Allah's word. Even people who believe in hadith confess that it is alleged prophet's word. The prophet did not say the hadiths are revelations but he did say the Quran is revelation and not his words, but Allah's word.

Revelation is from Allah, all of it must be true, if hadith is revelation, then why do even hadith scholars grade hadiths? Have you ever heard of grading verses of the Quran? Have you ever heard of people grading Quran verses as Sahih, hassan, or mauzo?

The hadith scholars themselves confess that there is fabrication and contradiction in hadith. But Allah says his revelation cannot be contradictory. Allah says clearly in Quran, that if the Quran were from any other source than God, then it would be filled with contradictions.

Existence of contradictions signal hadiths are not revelations.

Hadith maybe vague, but they can only be correct when they do not contradict the Quran. Even hadith beleivers say that those hadiths that contradict Quran is false and cannot be true.
Only hadiths that do not contradict the Quran have a chance of being true. but, still it is blind faith.

If you want to believe in hadiths, please do, but those that contradict the Quran cannot be true. But,one is free to believe whatever they choose. But, I will warn against believing things about religion without any basis.

No one has said that truth is only contained in the Quran. Snippets of truth can be found in newspapers, books, magazines or any source of information. But that is not revelation. There is a difference.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline ZKAB90

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No one has said that truth is only contained in the Quran. Snippets of truth can be found in newspapers, books, magazines or any source of information. But that is not revelation. There is a difference.

I pasting right now a critique to Quran-alone school by the followers of the Ahadith:

The mode by which the Qur'aan was transmitted is the same as the way in which the Ahadeeth were transmitted - from generation to generation. The individuals who transmitted the Qur'aan were the same who have transmitted the hadeeth. To accept one and reject the other defies reason. Moreover, the Qur'aanic promise of protection must apply to Hadeeth as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the interpretation.

It isn't about the truth of Ahadith, it isn't about the contradictions in the Ahadith [or alleged, because you know the mental gymnastic that Sunnis doing to fit them] that trouble me. The fear is well summarized in the red quote I posted.

Who guarantee that the Qu'ran we have is the Real one? Because of scientific miracles or the numerical ones? What guarantee us that this Qu'ran is complete?. The fact that Allah say that He protect it doesn't means that this sentence can't be added by people whow write down it to make more certain that is the complete one.

Offline ZKAB90

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Furthermore, in this thread HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1918.0 I posted a good rebuttal, in my opinion, took from a Sunni web.

This explain the obligatory to follow the Sunna.

So, we have two points for the Ahadith:

1/ Follow the Sunna of the Prophet [and in this thread I posted the link to the 19 quranic quotes that requires us to follow the Sunna, so you won't be able to say me that I only focuse to the Ahadith and disregard the Qu'ran]

2/ The Qu'ran was compiled by the same people who memorized [and some written down] the acts and sayings of the Prophet. Amazing, isn't?


Offline Hassan A

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Salam ZKAB90,

You said:

Quote
The mode by which the Qur'aan was transmitted is the same as the way in which the Ahadeeth were transmitted - from generation to generation. The individuals who transmitted the Qur'aan were the same who have transmitted the hadeeth.

I disagree. The claim that the hadith was preserved the much the same way as the Quran is utter nonsense. As brother Joseph Islam alluded to in one of his article (which I'll link below):

This statement has no basis. Most (if not all) reports within the ahadith corpus are based on ‘Ahad reports’ or singular transmissions (sole witnesses to the narrative) and collected centuries removed from source by later compilers with many discrepancies. For example in the main, what Abu Hurairah narrates, no one else narrates the same Hadith. This is an example of an 'Ahad' report or witness. The Quran in contrast has not reached us by 'Ahad' witnesses, but rather, it has been transmitted in its entirety by a consensus of the community (mutawwatir) long before any ahadith works were compiled or canonized.

Furthermore, it is pertinent to question why were ‘isnads’ (chain of narrators) are not required for each verse of the Quran? This is a very sound question. Why did the early Islamic community not deem it necessary to provide ‘isnads’ for every verse of the Quran?


Heres the link: http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm

Furthermore, I am of the believe that the Quran was compiled toghter during the life time of the prophet (pbuh) and not centries later as is the case with the hadith. Consider this:

"(It is) in sheets / pages held (greatly) in honor (Arabic: fi suhufin mukarrama), Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy (Arabic: marfu'atin mutahhara), (Written) by the hands of scribes. (Arabic: bi'aydi safara), honorable and pious and just (Arabic: kiramin barara)" [Quran 80:13-16]

The above verse, in my humble opinion, supports the claim that the Quran was written down by noble scribes at/during the time of the prophet.
Consider the following verse as well:

Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful”. [Quran 5:3]

In the above verse, pay close attention to the words "I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as a your religion". One must ask how it was possible to complete a ‘Deen’ (a system / religion) without the bedrock of instructions formulated and referenced by scripture? One must therefore posit the possible conclusion that for a 'Deen' to be complete, the scripture must have taken its final form.

Also pay close attention to the words "he has got them written" in the following verse, further confirming that the Quran was written during the lifetime of the prophet as the disbelievers are seen accusing him (Muhammad) of writing down ‘ancient stories’ (referring to the Quran as ‘ancient stories’):

And they (disbelievers) say: The stories of the ancients – he (Muhammad) has got them written - so these are read out to him morning and evening” [Quran 25:5]

Lastly, in 2:282 the Quran puts heavy emphasis on the need to write business transactions and highlights the importance of this; these are the guidelines for regular day to day matters. So the idea/argument that the prophet (to whom the Quran was sent to) departed this earth without him having written down the Quran or seeking to it that it was, to me sound unbelievable. So the writing of business transactions was/is considered important (as shown in 2:282) but the Book which was to provide guidance to mankind wasn't important enough to write down (during the life-time of the prophet)? What sense does that make?

As alluded to by Joseph Islam in one of his article:

2) If we are to trust that the Quran was compiled years after the death of the prophet (as is the case with the hadith) what, then, should we make of those same sources raising doubts to the Quran’s preservation with claims such as:

•That verses were missing and a goat ate the stoning verse with regards to adultery
• That the Prophet of God introduced the Satanic verses
• That Caliph Uthman burnt the extant copies of the Quran
• That there was a missing suckling verse (Ten clear sucklings which made the marriage unlawful, then it was later abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and then was somehow removed or missed from the Quran altogether
• That there was a missing Ibn Adam verse (regarding Ibn Adam's possession of a wadi of property)
• That there was a missing 'pleasing' verse from the Quran (regarding those that were slain at Bi'r Mauna which included the verse "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met with our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires)
• And many others, from al-Baraa, verses that were lost with dead Muslims, cancelled and repealed verses and those forgotten by the Prophet himself and those lost by Quranic reciters

http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm

Offline Hassan A

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Salam ZKAB90,

You said:

Quote
the Qur'aanic promise of protection must apply to Hadeeth as well for there is no point in protecting the words but not the interpretation.

I'm I correcting in assuming that you are of the believe that the hadith interprets the Quran? If so, then I disagree.
Upon you is the burden to proof, solely from a Quran, the requirement of other sources being necessary to explain the Quran (which you haven't yet done).

Consider the following verses which attest to the fact that the Quran is self-explanatory:

"A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail / distinguished (Arabic: Fussilat); a Quran in Arabic, for people who understand". [Quran 41:3]

"A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses perfected, moreover explained in detail / distinguished (Arabic: Fussilat) from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)". [Quran 11:1]

"Ta, Seen. These are the verses of the Qur'an and a clear Book" [Quran 27:1]

"These are the verses of the clear Book." [Quran]

"These are the verses of the clear Book" [Quran 26:2]

"Alif, Lam, Ra. [This is] a Book whose verses are perfected and then presented in detail from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted." [Quran 11:1]

"Alif, Lam, Ra. These are the verses of the Book and a clear Qur'an." [Quran 15:1]

How can a scripture (such as the Quran) which refers to itself as a “manifest light”(4:174) be shed more light on by another sources? How can a book which explains various things (16:89; 20:133) itself be in need of further explanation by other sources?

Quote
Furthermore, God made no guarantee to protect the Prophet's teachings in any form as he did with the Quran (15:9). To suggest that the Prophetic teachings have been protected in the Ahadith corpus which were not canonized until centuries after the death of the Prophet is also academically unwarranted.

You also said:

Quote
Who guarantee that the Qu'ran we have is the Real one? Because of scientific miracles or the numerical ones? What guarantee us that this Qu'ran is complete?. The fact that Allah say that He protect it doesn't means that this sentence can't be added by people who write down it to make more certain that is the complete one.

The Quran, in several verses, asks us to ponder over its message and perceive the truth of what it says. It is the truth of the Quran that is ultimately what should be used to convince someone; and it's that same truth which will convince one of its originality/authenticity. But if you are making the case that the Hadiths inform us of the Quran's authenticity, then what should we make of those same sources raising doubts to the Quran’s preservation with claims such as:

•That verses were missing and a goat ate the stoning verse with regards to adultery
• That the Prophet of God introduced the Satanic verses
• That Caliph Uthman burnt the extant copies of the Quran
• That there was a missing suckling verse (Ten clear sucklings which made the marriage unlawful, then it was later abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and then was somehow removed or missed from the Quran altogether
• That there was a missing Ibn Adam verse (regarding Ibn Adam's possession of a wadi of property)
• That there was a missing 'pleasing' verse from the Quran (regarding those that were slain at Bi'r Mauna which included the verse "Inform our tribe on our behalf that we have met with our Lord. He has been well pleased with us and has satisfied our desires)
• And many others, from al-Baraa, verses that were lost with dead Muslims, cancelled and repealed verses and those forgotten by the Prophet himself and those lost by Quranic reciters

http://quransmessage.com/articles/how%20do%20we%20know%20the%20quran%20was%20preserved%20if%20nor%20for%20ahadith%20FM3.htm

Offline Hassan A

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Salam ZKAB90,

Sorry for the multiple posts (this being one of them) which I have burden you with in response to some claims you've been making in your recent posts on this thread.

You said:

Quote
Furthermore, in this thread HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1918.0 I posted a good rebuttal, in my opinion, took from a Sunni web.
This explain the obligatory to follow the Sunna.

I jave already addressed your usage of the word Hikma to mean a secondary source in this post:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm

Offline Mubashir

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We have a whole "industry" running on future predictions of the blessed Nabi (S). Does the Quran support him having knowledge of future events?

We have people waiting for Mehdi and Eesa, Mujaddids at the start of each century; prediction of wayward scholars misleading the Ummah; Arabs building skyscrapers; Quran aloners, Dajjal, etc. etc. A new sect of Ahmedis claiming to be true and only Muslims was born based on such predictions. Each sect including ISIS find something in predictions to justify their existence.

Can someone provide evidence from the Quran proving that the blessed Nabi had knowledge of future events?


They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival? Say, "Its knowledge is only with my Lord. None will reveal its time except Him. It lays heavily upon the heavens and the earth. It will not come upon you except unexpectedly." They ask you as if you are familiar with it. Say, "Its knowledge is only with Allah , but most of the people do not know."

Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe."....


..And when you, [O Muhammad], do not bring them a sign, they say, "Why have you not contrived it?" Say, "I only follow what is revealed to me from my Lord. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment from your Lord and guidance and mercy for a people who believe." [7: 187-203]
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Please check the following verses !

مَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُطْلِعَكُمْ عَلَى الْغَيْبِ
ALLAH does not informs you of the unseen
3:179

عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَىٰ غَيْبِهِ أَحَدًا

The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any
72:26

قُل لَّا أَقُولُ لَكُمْ عِندِي خَزَائِنُ اللَّهِ وَلَا أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ
Say: I do not say to you, I have with me the treasures of Allah, nor do I know the unseen
6:50

قُل لَّا أَمْلِكُ لِنَفْسِي نَفْعًا وَلَا ضَرًّا إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ إِنْ أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ وَبَشِيرٌ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Say: I do not control any benefit or harm for my own soul except as Allah please; and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me; I am nothing but a warner and the giver of good news to a people who believe.

وَلَوْ كُنتُ أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ لَاسْتَكْثَرْتُ مِنَ الْخَيْرِ وَمَا مَسَّنِيَ السُّوءُ
and had I known the unseen I would have had much of good and no evil would have touched me
7:188

So if the prophets are not acquainted to the unseen(GHAIB), then how can any of us be ???
It's just that we have to keep things straight so that none of us may start considering the one close to ALLAH on one's ...

Offline Mubashir

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Did prophet Muhammad know the future?

Answer from The Quran:

The Day God will gather the messengers and He will say: "What was the response you received?"; they said: "We have no knowledge, You are the Knower of all the unseen." [5:109]

Say: "I do not say to you that I possess God's treasures, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I merely follow what is inspired to me." Say: "Are the blind and the seer the same? Do you not think?" [6:50]

Say: "I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm, except what God wills. And if I could know the unseen, then I would have increased my good fortune, and no harm would have come to me. I am but a warner and a bearer of good news to a people who believe." [7:188]

And they say: "If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord." Say: "Indeed, the unseen is for God, so wait, and I will wait with you." [10:20]

"Nor do I say to you that I have the treasures of God, nor do I know the unseen, nor do I say that I am an angel, nor do I say to those whom your eyes look down upon that God will not grant them any good. God is more aware of what is in their souls; in such case I would be among the wicked." [11:31]

Say, "I am but a human being like you, being inspired that your god is One god. So whoever looks forward to meeting his Lord, then let him do good works and not set up any partner in the service of his Lord." [18:110]

Say: "None in the heavens or the Earth know the unseen except God. And they do not perceive when they will be resurrected."[27:65]

Say: "I am no different from the other messengers, nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a clear warner" [46:9]

Read Quran verses here www.quranix.net


Only God knows the future and this knowledge can be attained only through divine revelations/signs (3:44, 3:179, 11:49, 12:102, 30:2, 72:26-28).


And for those who follow the Traditional Ahadith, Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477:
Narrated Masruq:

'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but Allah."

More articles: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/