"some of them over others"

[wanderer]

Hello. So I've been studying verse 4:34 lately, and while I totally agree with you on the meaning of "daraba" in this context, i don't get what the phrase "some of them over others" means. It seems very vague and odd, and there seems to be no definite answer as to its meaning, so if somebody could help me out, that would be great.
Regards,
wanderer

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Wanderer

Verse 3:34 is informing us that God has created man that he is able to be a maintainer of women by the essence of how God has created him. God also bestows more preference or bounty on some people than others(3:32). This is arguably done in a means to test us. We see this all around us all the time. Some people no matter how hard they try they will not be as well off as others. And some may not do much at all but God has favoured them in this world or in other words given them more. This at the end has a bigger picture and meaning. It also may be the same for male and female. It does not basically mean that God loves people more than others based on what they have or what He has bestowed on them from His bounty.

(4:34 part) Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means.

(49:13) O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

Please see related article below

Salam

YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR MEANS
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/446482748822191

WHO DOES GOD LOVE?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/443665149103951

[wanderer]

So are you trying to say that God has given more to men???

[Hamzeh]

Peace Wanderer

Well its not me saying this, it just seems like from the verses of the Quran that God prefers some certain creations over others. At one point God preferred the Children of Israel over all others (2:47, 2:122).

Verse 16:71 informs us that some people have been favoured more than others.

Verse 4:34 informs us that men are different and able to carry the task of being supporters by God's Will and that He has them preferred over women in a way of being able to carry the task of a maintainer, worker, provider. Notwithstanding that God has given other tasks to women that men are not able to do. Give birth, be mothers, different mind set. Men are arguably physically stronger, not as emotional etc. The fact is they are created differently.

(2:47) O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

(2:122) O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

(16:71) And Allah has favored some of you over others in provision. But those who were favored would not hand over their provision to those whom their right hands possess so they would be equal to them therein. Then is it the favor of Allah they reject?

(4:34 part) Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means.

We are all different. Some nations have been given more than others. Some humans have been given more than others. Even Humans are different than other species. God has preferred some over others. [1]

We all look different. Some thin, some bigger, some are given more beauty then others, some are given wealth, some have been given health etc. These are all possibly different means to test all of us. And some things that are not given to us could also be part of the test. (57:23)

Everything happens for a reason, and is written or decreed by the Lord before it happens.

(57:22) No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.
(57:23) In order that you may not be sad over matters that you fail to get, nor rejoice because of that which has been given to you. And Allah likes not prideful boasters.

(4:32) And do not wish for that by which Allah has made some of you exceed others. For men is a share of what they have earned, and for women is a share of what they have earned. And ask Allah of his bounty. Indeed Allah is ever, of all things, Knowing.

Salam

Related posts below

[1] ARE HUMANS GOD'S MOST PREFERRED CREATION?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/763721543764975

[2] BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/396349120502221?stream_ref=10

[3] THE LIFE OF THE WORLD IS JUST AN ILLUSION - A TEST
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=122357221234747&set=a.122357211234748.21109.100003814101226&type=1

[wanderer]

I'm sorry, but I do not accept what you are saying. In particular, because the phrase does not mention a particular gender. You are right that men have more rights and responsibilities according to the Quran, but that it no way means that men are a "preferred creation". We were both created equal from one soul (4:1). The more I think about it, i think that the question may be referring to monetary advantages that some men have over other men, and how they both must spend their wealth to support their families, although I am not sure, which is why I posed the question. I also do not know where your translation of 4:34 comes from. The word "bestowed" is used, not "excel". It's also "some of them", not "one of them".
Regards,
wanderer

[deleted]

Peace. Could you refer to a dict. that states it means "bestowed".?

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Wanderer

It does seem like your right. That the verse seems to suggest that men are protectors maintainers of women by how God has bestowed or exceled some MEN over others. This could be refering to wealth not sure.

I was just pointing out that even though all humans are equal in the fact that they are homo sapiens that some of us have been favoured or excel one another in aspects of wealth authority health abilities etc. For the reason that we are tested by what we are given and not given. In that sense we are not equal. But its not say those who have more are better.

The translation at first glance I thought was best from the list I seen. I believe it was by Muhsin Khan.

Salam

[Amira]

Assalamu alaikum,

Hamzeh, I think you used an inaccurate translation of a very sensitive and controversial verse. This is a better version:

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because of Allah has bestowed some over others, and because they support them from their means."

Joseph Islam has stated somewhere (I forgot the name of the actual post) that "some over others" is entirely noncommittal. It could refer to some men having more money than others, or people having different strengths.

It can't mean God has bestowed "men above women" because the Arabic words used in the verse are both plural masculine: "some over others." There's no feminine tense there at all.

Personally, I think this statement has to do with the different strengths and responsibilities God gave everyone.

Just because men and women have different strengths doesn't mean anyone is superior. Verse 49:13 says clearly that people only gain superiority over others by righteousness. Also, as Wanderer said, verse 4:1 says both genders were created from the same soul. 

The following links do a more in-depth analysis of that verse. People have entire websites dedicated to 4:34...

http://www.quranverse434.com/

http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/wife-beating-quran.htm

http://quran434.com/

http://quransmessage.com/articles/does%20the%20quran%20sanction%20wife%20beating%20FM3.htm

Hope this helps

[deleted]

Peace. Again, could you refer to a dict. that states it means "bestowed"? 

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum Amira

Thank you for pointing that out and I take full responsibility for using that translation. I have pointed that out in my last post to Wanderer when I told him/her that you seemed right. Please forgive me for any mistakes on my part. I did not mean to offend anyone. I am also glad thank God that it had been brought to my attention. And next time for sure before imparting a opinion it needs to be more thought out and researched Insha'Allah.

Just to rephrase my last post I did say "It does seem like your right. That the verse seems to suggest that men are protectors maintainers of women by how God has bestowed or exceled some MEN over others. This could be refering to wealth not sure.
"
Its just seems like the term "bestowed" needs to be more clarified by what is being bestowed. Thats why I suggested the term excel or preferred or favoured in my pervious posts. Because then it can be in a noncommittal sense. The term in arabic is "faddala"

Also I should of been more clear and mentioned that God has bestowed or excel some MEN over other MEN. Thats what I meant.


You said

Just because men and women have different strengths doesn't mean anyone is superior. Verse 49:13 says clearly that people only gain superiority over others by righteousness. Also, as Wanderer said, verse 4:1 says both genders were created from the same soul. 

I agree. I did not say one is more superior than another. I argued that despite the fact that God has given humans different attributes, possessions or favours that it was for a ultimate reason and purpose.  I followed by saying that it doesn't necessarily mean one is BETTER than another but there maybe a responsibility and a reason for that.

If you look at my first post I actually mentioned verse 49:13.

Some were born prophets, some are born messengers. Does this make them more superior or does this mean that certain people are created with better skills or certain tasks than other by God. In other words God had chosen or preferred some people than others in order for a task or a outcome to be achieved and tests are followed by them and responsibilities.

Again we have different abilities, some of are born blind, some with out arms or legs, some are richer or more beautiful than others etc. God knows best.

I confirmed this in the first post "It does not basically mean that God loves people more than others based on what they have or what He has bestowed on them from His bounty. "

Also yes I do agree with the wife beating articles. Thank you for sharing sister 

Salam

[Amira]

Assalamu alaikum brother, thank you for your clarification I apologize for not reading your previous answers thoroughly enough. You did state that you agreed with brother/sister Wanderer.

I also agree with your statement that our different abilities are all a test. In the end we will be judged for how we used them. 

[Wakas]

peace wanderer, all,

Quote from: Quran434.com

"...bima (with what) faddalaAllahu (God preferred) baAAdahum (some of them) AAala (over) baAAdin* (another/others)..." *masculine
This likely refers to al rijal (the men) as indicated by keeping the same suffix reference later in the sentence, i.e. its logical and contextual flow. Note that 4:32 says "some of YOU over others" whilst 4:34 says "some of THEM over others" - which implies that in 4:32 it is referring to one pool of people (i.e. humankind, i.e. men and women), whilst 4:34 is referring to two groups (or a subgroup) of people, hence "THEM" i.e. referring to the men.
See "baAAdahum AAala baAAdin" / "some of them above others" in 2:253 and 17:21, and also 6:53 "baAAdahum bi baAAdin" / "some of them with others", for a comparison. However, there are several theoretically possible interpretations of this phrase:
with what God preferred on some (men/women) over others (men/women)
OR
with what God preferred on some (men) over others (men) **most likely based on the evidence.
OR
with what God preferred on some (men) over others (men/women)
OR
with what God preferred on some (men) over others (women)

The keyword being "some". Thus, whichever way it is translated it proves the obvious, that not all men are preferred/bestowed equally, and/or not all men are preferred/bestowed more than women. Also, the term "preferred" is general, unless made specific in context, and in this case may refer to distribution of wealth, e.g. inheritance, as mentioned by similar phrasing in 4:32. Since spending of wealth is mentioned separately the preference likely refers to the fact that men do not have the physical burden of pregnancy hence are in a more favourable position to work/provide by default, or simply that some men are in a position to work whilst other men may not be.
It should be noted that some traditional commentators interpret this phrasing to suggest men are preferred to women with respect to various unmentioned things but this is not warranted by the Arabic. To add to this point, the same phrasing is used for preferring some messengers to others [2:253] and some prophets to others [17:55] and yet The Quran repeatedly tells us not to make distinction among them. The best person according to The Quran is whoever is the most righteous/pious/God-conscious [49:13]. It should also be kept in mind that each person will be judged according to how they conducted themselves with what they have been given [6:165]. In other words, with privilege comes responsibility.
As we can see, The Quran is not stating a fixed rule, i.e. that all men are the maintainers/supporters of women, they are only so if they fulfill the criteria and it is referring to the wider duty of care/responsibility men have as mentioned above. It is conditional.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

Having read all the posts here I would like to add my opinion to the mix.

I feel that these verses are referring to a responsibily aspect and that God has bestowed it on men with regards to women.

There was mention of 'masculine plural' with regard to 'men over women'  and it was pointed out by Amira that it can't include females but I would like to politely point out that it can.

Men are tasked with the responsibility of protecting women and providing for them. That doesn't imply though that men are better in the eyes of the Lord as He will judge each individual on their own merits.