What ARE the differences between Hafs and Warsh??

[good logic]

Peace wanderer.

First congratulation on your perseverance to find out about the deen at such a young age.

You have a head start . May  the Lord bless you and guide you.

You say you have been reading Qoran more and more. Well, Qoran is fully detailed ,it has all the answers one seeks about the deen.

Take your time, trust in the Lord and keep reading Qoran. You will get your answers, just be patient, GOD is Merciful and keeps His promise to help and support the believers.

Also, your brothers and sisters here care about those who seek the Lord, they will try to help and look after you.

GOD bless you.
Peace

[Amira]

Wanderer, I didn't realize you were 14. I was as agitated as you earlier and I understand how overwhelming it is. I was obsessed with this as well at one point, but I promise it gets better and afterward you'll be like, "Why was I so upset earlier?!" You seem smart, just worried, and I promise you'll get answers.

 I'm actually about the same age as you (although I sound older in most of my posts, since I deliberately copy Joseph Islam's style of writing). Also American. Are you a brother or sister? You sounded a bit like a sister in an earlier thread.

You seem to have calmed down now, which is good, but this thread has gotten me very confused about the whole issue.

I don't know much Arabic, which makes studying Quran difficult. I think we should all learn Arabic so we can do our own research.

Are you ok now?

[wanderer]

Yes thank you brother Hamzeh and sister Amira, I am feeling better now. In response to your inquiries, sister Amira, I am a man. Also, another problem I have in my studies is that, like I said before, my family is non-practicing (although my mother has gotten a bit more religious lately) so I feel very alone in trying to interpret the scripture. (Though this forum has helped). Do you guys know any other good, helpful websites that work from a Quranist perspective?

[ahmad]

Dear Wanderer,

I just wanted to tell you that you are not alone in what you are going through. All Truth seekers have gone through much suffering in order to reach a path that is closer to the truth. When one leaves his old beliefs to search for the truth. One becomes very fragile. But don't worry, with time you become less fragile as you get firmly grounded in Truth. Patience is key, even the prophet did not receive the Quran at once. And many verses in the Quran tell the prophet to not be in doubt from what has been revealed.

[3:60]
This is the truth from your Lord, so do not be in doubt.

Its normal to be in doubt, to be confused. We all go through these phases. And don't say that you are a disbeliever or a hypocrite. How can you say that when God has guided you to learn more about islam from this website. Trust me you have been guided to a path that is closer to the truth than many others. The insecurity you feel should be a driving force that will make you learn more. And maybe one day God may use you to guide others with the knowledge he will give you.


Good luck 

[Amira]

Hi Wanderer,

You asked about websites that work from a Quranist (or Quran-centric) perspective. The first thing I'd say is that you should stay away from Submission.org et al. These sites almost seem legitimate at first, but they twist around Quranic translation and can seriously confuse you if you don't know Arabic.

This is the best website out there in my opinion. The articles are very unbiased and moderate. But these ones are good too:

http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/

http://www.quranists.net/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/quranalyzeit/

And you've also probably seen Joseph Islam's Facebook page.

I've been doing research for a while, and there are actually Quranist conventions in the UK and Quranist mosques in several cities. It's not as uncommon as it seems.

Hope this helps

[wanderer]

Thanks Amira. I've already seen the 'misconceptions' page you recommended and liked it, despite its brevity, and I've also seen Ro Wassem's blog, though I dislike it due to his focus on "progressive Islam". I am very skeptical of "progressive Islam", which I see as an attempt to appease the West and other liberal ideologies. What I love most about this site is how  it doesn't try to force an ideology onto the Quran, but just let's the scripture speak for itself. Sadly, as I feared there doesn't seem to be any like it. Nevertheless,  thanks for your help.

[Student]

Salaam,
Wanderer,

As for the Hafs/Warsh issue, my problem is, how do we know our version that we read and quote today is the correct one and all the others are the aberrations?? Please respond and thanks again

Let me assure you both Hafs and Warsh are correct and they have no bearing on the alteration in the meaning of the Quran, which is most important thing to consider and note. I firmly believe Quran has multi-faceted Miracles embedded in it and Mathematical numbers and codes is definitely no exception. Here's why I say this confidently:

http://kaheel7.com/Book/Marvels_BookSeven.pdf  (My favorite)

But there are many on this site's main page:

http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/numeric-miracle

And this one too:

https://qurancode.codeplex.com/documentation

And rest assured, none of them entertain 19 number miracle to the compromise and sacrifice verse 128 and 129 of surah 9. The first link in fact debunk thoroughly the number 19 as base code of the Quran theory proposed by Rashad Khalifa.

Make abundant Dhikrullah (whatever mode/method you know, the best however is La ilaha ilallah) and your heart will be at rest as promised by Allah swt in the Quran.

Take care,
Student

[Amira]

Hi Wanderer, what is it that you particularly dislike about "progressive Islam?" I agree that a lot of it is misguided, but not all. This site could be considered "progressive Islam" too--it all depends on the what you mean by progressive.

Anyway, going back to the Hafs and Warsh question, I look forward to Joseph Islam's input. I hope he can sort this out. 

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

So you are one of the younger readers of this forum (not the youngest I believe). We also have forum readers and contributors who are well into their 90s, maybe even more. So quite a good spread of age group. 

You appear to be gifted with adept writing skills; you also enquire about very adult themes such as earthly spouses, intimacy related questions, hurs and others, hence I can see why you can be perceived as older by other readers.

Now, there has been a lot said in this thread and it isn't quite clear what has been answered to your satisfaction and what hasn't. What I would like you to do (please) is to give me clear questions that you would like me (only me on this occasion) to answer. Number them 1,2,3 etc. and I will address your query 1 by 1, God willing.

I look forward to hearing from you and please continue to patient with any delays in my response.

You may also find interesting a thread that I shared on Facebook today.

https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/777753862361743

PS: Thanks to all those kind souls that have contributed to this thread.

Regards,
Joseph

[wanderer]

Thank you for your response, Joseph! Here are my questions:
1.) What are the differences between ancient and modern copies of the Quran?
2.) How did Hafs and Warsh originate and why, if it is deemed to be 'incorrect' by the vast majority of Muslims, does Warsh still exist?
And most importantly-
3.)How do we know that the current, mass transmitted Quran is, word-by-word, the scripture that was sent down to the Prophet centuries ago?
Thanks again and I look forward to hearing your response.
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

Please see my responses to your questions in red italics

1. What are the differences between ancient and modern copies of the Quran?

First of all, the Quran was foremost a 'recitation / reading' (revealed as an inspiration). It was then transcribed by scribes. The Quran was not like the tablets revealed to Prophet Moses, inscribed by God on a piece of rock or a codex / book sent down by God on a mountain.

The written codices were secondary and supported the mass reading and not the other way around.

To answer your question simply, there are two main readings which are supported by respective codices / manuscripts. In the main, Hafs copies are consistent within themselves and Warsh copies consistent within themselves. This is arguably the same for ancient copies as it is for modern copies. I use the word 'main' lightly as one copy (Hafs) is actually the main reading, whilst the other, isolated.

To see in depth the differences between Hafs and Warsh so that you have some idea of the differences supported by a scholarly assessment, please kindly see a scholarly piece of work [1] below which I find very cogent.

In summary, Hafs is recited by the majority of the Muslim world (95%) and Warsh about 3%. These are not 'different Qurans' in the sense that one Quran does not say for example, Prophet Joseph was thrown in a well, whilst the other says he was left on the ground to escape. To compare the differences, please refer to the works already cited / shared.

2. How did Hafs and Warsh originate and why, if it is deemed to be 'incorrect' by the vast majority of Muslims, does Warsh still exist?

When we say incorrect, we must only speak about what some would argue are the minor aberrations. The rest of the Quran which is absolutely identical is obviously not 'incorrect'.

With any large reading and it being spread en masse across the globe as it was before voice capture, printing presses or photographic capture, there is always a possibility that one isolated pronunciation may become peddled or a particular codex is transcribed in a particular way without diacritical marks and a small group misreads it. As I trust that you will appreciate, this does not now mean that in order to 'protect' the message, God is expected to wipe out the group that have misread something or a bolt of lightening strikes an isolated community that have a slightly aberrant codex with a view to annihilate them. What it arguably simply means is that the main recitation is still protected in numbers.

Similarly, this does not mean suddenly, that the main message / reading is compromised. It just means someone is reading it differently. For example, just because a group of people decide to remove two verses from the Quran (as they do today like the submitters), or a group of people misread certain passages of the Quran and spread a new codex / manuscript, does that now mean that the entire Muslim world where the main recitation is protected is compromised?

Kindly remember, we are not talking about 51% Hafs and 49% Warsh. We are talking about 95% Hafs and 3% Warsh (other 2% even more isolated).  So yes, Warsh readings do exist today but only in certain communities / parts of the world. However, their Quran isn't fundamentally different from Hafs. Please kindly try to understand the differences first.

3. How do we know that the current, mass transmitted Quran is, word-by-word, the scripture that was sent down to the Prophet centuries ago?

I have repeatedly argued, even with Bassam Zawadi why only the mass reading can be supported. I have spent pages and pages arguing this. Please kindly see [2] below.

The prophet would have not revealed two recitations. The Quran also supports one reading. The Quran was also transmitted en masse. It was transcribed immediately by scribes and copies would have arguably been disseminated. Copies of copies would have resulted as would have learning through a strong oral tradition which even exists today (through hafiz / hafizas). This would have arguably, stabilised the dissemination of the content of the Quran as revealed to the Prophet.

Therefore, what reading are you likely to support even if one does not accept verse 15:9 and God's testimony to protect His message? A transmission which has had the support of the majority in this case or minority readings? Please think about this.

Finally, I feel it is always useful to remember, that one does / should not believe in the veracity of the Quran based on 'the authenticity' of the script or recitation. A perfect Quran only shows that an Arabian man who called himself a prophet shared these words in the name of a God somewhere in the Arabian peninsula. That means nothing. He could still be a false prophet. It is the cogency of the arguments contained in what he presents which should ultimately convince one of its origins, not the 'alleged authenticity' of the manuscript or recitation itself.

What I personally find more disconcerting is not the two different readings (95% read vs 3%), but rather, how one group of people can reject Salaat as timed prayers or reject the need for fasting playing semantic gymnastics and linguistic microsurgery, whilst the other accepts this based on the same Quran! Now that is a change in the message.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] BROCKETT. Adrian Alan, Studies in Two Transmissions of the Qur'an, University of St. Andrews, Department of Arabic Studies. PhD Thesis 1984
https://www.scribd.com/doc/21972348/Studies-in-Two-Transmissions-of-the-Qur-an-by-Adrian-Alan-Brockett
[2] Discussion with Bassam Zawadi on Hafs, Warsh and Transmission
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=840

[wanderer]

Sorry for the late response, but thank you for your incredibly informative post!! You really helped clear up some misconceptions that I had!! I'm going to stop responding in this particular discussion now, but I look forward to discussing other issues on this forum with all of you. Thank you all!!!

[ilker]

Salam

I know it's been quite long since the last post but i'd like to hear what you think about the difference in 2:125.

Quoting from free-minds.org:

2:125 in Hafs is وَاتَّخِذوْا “WatakhIzu” (You shall take) / In Warsh it is وَاتَّخَذوْا “WatakhAzu” (They have taken/made).

In 2:125 the subject being addressed is that of “Maqam Ibrahim”. One version gives a command/order, while the other states a historical fact/observation.


what do you think ? It's really confusing.

[wanderer]

Salam Brother ilker-
Firstly, my translation says simply "And take", not "You shall take". Also, I don't see how "they have taken" would make logical sense in this context at all.
Regards
wanderer

[deleted]

Peace. You might also translate as "and take you", or "and you're to take". Does it change what it means?