49:11 women

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Nura,

I in no way felt that you accused me of dissention so please don't apologise 

If the verses we are discussing is alluding to the fact that women are more prone to gossiping then I don't find it troublesome at all as studies prove that for example womens brains after wired differently from mens when doing  the same tasks.

The emotional part of the brain is more active in women in day to day functioning as compared to men. They also talk a lot more than men day to day. Of course there will be exceptions but it is a general observation.

The Quran when dealing only in financial transactions states that 2 male witnesses be present or 1 male and 2 females. The reason given is that if one female forgets then the other one can remind her.(2.282)  That doesn't mean she is less of a person.

I think that yes the emphasis has been more on men regarding homosexuality as can be seen by the story of Lot and other verses. I also believe that here are more homosexual men than women and studies do back it up. There is one for example in the UK conducted by the ONS in 2012 where twice as many men than women described themselves as homosexual.

At the end of the day God created us and He knows the differences between the genders best and it in no way diminishes us in terms of  the blessings received from Him.

[Nura]

Salam Truth Seeker 


Yes that study says that the number of homosexual men as in outed men is more than outed women. I am sure u know due to stigma a lot of people do not come out of the closet! By prone to homosexuality I did not mean homosexual men are more in number than homosexual women. The true number can never be found because of a lot of factors. What I meant was are men more inclined towards homosexual behaviour than women? As in men have more tendency or preference towards homosexual behaviour than women This is not proven.
 
More outed men than women does not give enough data to conclude that. Inclinination or behaviour prediction is not made based on numbers of outed men or women. We cannot say men are more inclined from any such study. We can only say more men are out than women from that study. One cannot comment on the nature of homosexuality or men's inclination towards that. We can only say the homosexual population in UK has more males.

About the financial witnesses, the first woman's testimony is heard first if it is accepted then the second woman's testimony is not required. The case is then solved by the testimony of one man and the first woman. This point is often overlooked that the second woman is back up if the first one messes up. If the first one messes up her testimony is not accepted, the second woman's testimony is accepted. If both testimonies match, then the first one's is enough! In all cases the witness remains one man and one woman.

Anyway let's focus on what we have in common, we both agree the message is both for men and women the emphasis bit we disagree about but that is ok. 

[Nura]

Also about the financial testimony thing, it can also happen that two women's testimonies match with each other but not with that of the man, in such a case the two women's testimonies are accepted or should be accepted. When that happens a financial matter can also become solved using the testimonies of two females. God requires two witnesses and in each scenario He makes sure there are two acceptable witnesses. Acceptable to society, If we think God does not require witnesses, God knows the truth, even when we sin in private and there are no human witnesses. But when it comes to social issues multiple acceptable witnesses are required so that the chance of injusice occuring is reduced. But that does not mean that witnesses cannot be bought r they do notngive false witnesses, multiple witnesses reduce the chance of taht happening even if at a small degree. 

During the 7th century women were not much involved in financial dealings or maybe the people during that time did not find the testimony of women acceptable when it came to matters of business or money. It was not a long time back that it was believed that men were more superior or capable as business men and dealing with money issues.

God does not differentiate but there are some things which have to be done keeping the general attitude of the population in mind, revealing a God's book to a woman at that time or making a woman a Prophet would have only meant one more social dogma to fight for that woman Prophet. Clearly women were not accepted as suitable. God know us and our circumstances. He knew which situations required what to be done. Women's trstimony was not acceptable to society at large not a long time back. God was trying to give rules that were acceptable or would have been accepatable bh Arabs without much social restructuring. And also God knew that more men were educated about money matters back then, requiring women to become witnesses when there were so few womwn who were well versed in finacial matters wouod have given rise to more problems. The whole situation gives a hint that God accepts the testimony of both genders. To Him we are all equal, but not all people in society believe this or behave in such manner.

[Nura]

Salam everyone

I just found a link which talks about two studies where it was found men gossip more than women
https://nicolehart8.wordpress.com/2014/05/08/facts-on-why-guys-gossip-more-than-girls/

Now, I do not believe that men gossip more than women or vice versa cause that is overt generalisation. Studies such as these only prove that the sample for the research had men who gossiped more than the women in that sample. We cannot say such a thing that all over the world men gossip more than women. Such sweeping generalisations are only acceptable when God says such a thing because He knows all of us and He keeps track of everything. But God never said women gossip or backbite more in the Quran. Now, there is research data saying that on the contrary men gossip more. Such research is replete with potholes.

Next there is no research where it is found that men upon belonging to the male gender is more susceptible to homosexual behavior. No man has more chances of becoming homosexual just because his gender is male. Or that females have some kind of protection from incidence if homosexual behaviour just because their gender is female. No one knows for sure why someone experiences homosexual urges. There are scientific papers suggesting it is genetic but there are scientic oapers refuting such a claim as well. Nobody as of yet could prove conclusively why some people are homosexual others are not. Maybe there is no reason and it is just an inclination that is a test designed by God for a chosen few. We do not know because God has not told us that homosexuality is genetic or psychological in the Quran.But, it cannot be conclusively said that gender plays/does not play a role on the tendency or increased/decreased incidence of homosexual behaviour.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Nura,

Thanks for your replies. I think that the conversation is veering off track and moving towards studies and surveys which is not the primary discussion.

There is a clear emphasis in the Qur'an on women regarding deriding others and a reason is not given as to why that is but it indicates that they have to pay particular attention to the verse.

We can surmise all day as to why but logic tells me they must be doing it more otherwise why single them out when they are already addressed in the previous verse.

[Nura]

Salam Truth Seeker

I have posted before that verses were usually revealed in a context sometimes to deal with a particular situation that arose at that time and beleivers wanted divine guidance . I am not denying that the verse was not revealed during an event when women were fighting amongst themselves. It very well maybe. But that does not give us a reason to conclude women in general are more prone to fighting, gossiping or backbiting. And depending on the context the message was written using a male or female subject. But I do not think or believe that either women were singled out because they are more prone to gossiping or that men were singled out because they are more prone to homosexual behaviour. The Quran doesn't say that. The Quran always makes use of a context while giving out a ruling or law but sweeping generalisations were not made in either of the verses we were discussing.

Anyways, we can just agree to disagree. 

[Nura]

Salam Truth Seeker

Sorry I had to repost this,  modifying time for the previous post was up  . I apologise for the inconvinience. But I feel like I am repeating myself and We both understand each of our points but we are not convinced. I think it is time to agree to disagree. This is most probably going to be my last post on this topic but before that I wanted to clarify my position ( u are free to think of this as female gibber-gabber  )

I have posted before that verses were usually revealed in a context sometimes to deal with a particular situation that arose at that time and beleivers wanted divine guidance . I am not denying that the verse was not revealed during an event when women were fighting amongst themselves. It very well maybe. But that does not give us a reason to conclude women in general are more prone to fighting, gossiping or backbiting. And depending on the context the message was written using a male or female subject. But I do not think or believe that either women were singled out because they are more prone to gossiping or that men were singled out because they are more prone to homosexual behaviour. The Quran doesn't say that. The Quran always makes use of a context while giving out a ruling or law but sweeping generalisations were not made in either of the verses we were discussing.

I have shared research because neither does the scripture say such nor is there data to support ur assertion, on the contrary research papers can be found with just the opposite conclusion that men are more prone to gossiping. When scripture does not say such a thing, we have to rely on real life data. But there are researches where women were found to be more prone to gossiping and there are researches where men were found to enjoy gossip more. So, we can conclude that both men and women gossip and the issue is very subjective.

Anyways, we can just agree to disagree. 

[relearning]

Actually it is very simple Quran was sent to arabs at that time whom were/are very male centric society (as yet today still so i guess).  You can see that by reading quran. Thats why it addresses sometimes like that.