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Offline wanderer

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Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« on: August 13, 2016, 05:57:34 PM »
Hi guys, so I was just reading a couple verse from Surah al-Baqarah and I noticed something odd: So after Moses left for 40 nights, the Children of Israel began worshipping a calf. So then, when he returned, an angered Moses told them to slay themselves for their sins. But then, in nthe very next verse, it is mentioned that God forgave them. Am I missing something? Please someone explain this to me.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Hassan A

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2016, 04:37:14 AM »
Salaam wanderer,

With regards to the verse you're alluding to, I appreciate Mr. Assads explanation of it:

This literal interpretation (probably based on the Biblical account in Exodus xxxii, 26-28) is not, however, convincing in view of the immediately preceding call to repentance and the subsequent statement that this repentance was accepted by God. I incline, therefore, to the interpretation given by 'Abd al-Jabbar (quoted by Razi in his commentary on this verse) to the effect that the expression "kill yourselves" is used here in a metaphorical  sense (majazan), i.e., "mortify yourselves".

Offline Nura

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 06:01:04 AM »
Salam

If I recall correctly and pls correct me if I am mistaken, Prophet Moses sometimes did and say things out of anger which we cannot really think was something he did because Allah asked him to do e.g Prophet Moses broke the slab of stone to pieces on which the commandments of Allah were written. Clearly Allah did not ask Prophet Moses to break it. Prophets are humans, they make mistakes and also sometimes overreacted. There are numerous examples of such incidences .

My take on this verse is that Prophet Moses was very angry and He asked his people to repent and maybe when he said to kill themselves, he meant it is better to die in the eyes of Allah than to remain alive and worship someone/something else. In the next verse we are informed that the people of Moses refused to believe him and told him that they would not believe him unless they could see God for themselves. So they were struck dead after lightning and they were resurrected so that they could finally believe.

So, maybe when Prophet Moses asked them to repent and kill themselves, it was a test from Allah, maybe if they listened and obeyed and repented and killed themselves, they would have been resurrected by Allah anyway, but we will never know because they denied to obey Prophet Moses and demanded to see Allah.

But, still after all that (refusing to repent and kill themselves and having the audacity to demand to see Allah) Allah revived them after death and forgave them and provided provision for them as informed in the subsequent verses.

So, in short these people weren't really killed for disobeying and cow-Worshipping. They were resurrected and remained alive because Allah forgave them. Maybe it was all an elaborate test to see whether they obeyed the Prophet, repented and loved Allah enough to sacrifice their lives for Him in repentance for committing shirk
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Nura

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2016, 06:25:39 AM »
But all that does not mean that Allah asked all unbelievers of all time to kill themselves. It is a context specific verse and also most probably a test designed for Prophet Moses and his people. No where in the Quran other than this verse are unbelievers asked to kill themselves just for being unbelievers and commiting shirk. We are asked not to die as someone who committed shirk but did not repent. God assures us that He accepts the repentence of truly repentant people. This verse can in no way be taken as an injuction for killing unbelievers or as an invitation for unbelievers to kill themselves. We should keep in mind that these particular people were resurrected from death. Others may not be so fortunate and moreover, it is not a commandment for all people of all time. This verse and subsequent verses are rehashing history and telling us what actually transpired during Prophet Moses's ministry. For me these verses paint a picture of a very merciful God , who forgives even shirk and foolish human audacity.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 07:16:19 AM »
Yes, thank you Nura and Hassan A, I find Muhammad Asad's interpretation quite convincing.
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2016, 07:28:28 AM »
Dear respected brothers and sisters,

As-salamu alaykum


I have great respect for our late brother Asad and also our forum readers. I will try to present a different angle as merely food for thought, contemplation and possible further scrutiny. After all, this is an academic forum too and it is in that context, I share my humble thoughts on the question being asked. My points assume that respected readers are very conversant with these themes and well acquainted with the Quranic verses cited.

  • One central teaching in the Quran is that one will find no change in God's ways (His Sunna). There are Quranic verses replete which underscore the response God has given when He has instituted His established way (8:38; 15:11-13; 18:55; 33:62; 40:85; 48:23; 35:43). What is that way in these verses and why was it delivered? [1]
  • How does God deal with those people mentioned in the above verses? Is God's wrath delivered exclusively through extreme natural occurrences, through the hands of men or both?
  • Does the transgression against a prophet and corruption amount to a heinous crime, particularly once the message has been made evident?
  • How did God deal with those that did not repent and caused corruption against the prophet of God, ignored treaties and transgressed? Please kindly see Surah Tauba (Chapter 9) and the instruction given. [2]
  • How did God destroy the temple twice and why? Why were so many Israelites ravaged and destroyed? How was the punishment meted out? Who or what did God use (17:4-17:7)?
  • What is the punishment of transgression against a prophet or corruption in the land? Please kindly see verse 5:33 [3]
  • How does the Quran treat Biblical stories in general? Does it confirm them, deny them or elaborate them where necessary?
  • Given the above, what are the narratives that the Children of Israel would have been familiar with when confronted with these verses and the incident in question?
  • Did the Quran unequivocally deny the narrative the Israelites would have been familiar with or did it use terminology which appeared to support it? In other words, would the Children of Israel have recalled the event from their Scriptures as a confirmation (Musaddaqan) by the Quran or was the Quran seen as denying their understanding and their Scriptural narratives in clear speech?
  • If the Biblical record of Exodus 32:26-28 is accepted in essence in that some form of retribution was taken and if as the Biblical narratives alludes, a 'corruption' had arisen or even a party bent on corruption had become established, what was God's established way to deal with such transgressors that would not repent? What has God’s way always been? It is noteworthy that the option to repent was given by Prophet Moses when he said 'Whoever is for the Lord, come to me' (Exodus 32:36). Was this not an amnesty offered? A group of people came, but there were those that denied and refused.
  • What would have then been the established form of punishment in that case against transgressors and rebels in the midst of a Prophet of God (supported by Prophet Aaron) that has made the message clear and even shown such grand portents such as the parting of the sea as those witnessed by Pharaoh? Please also recall all the Quranic verses that cover this theme in the Quran?


Yes indeed, the Quranic verse 2:54 speaks about turning to the Lord in repentance. Even the Biblical record supports that some did (Levites). But the Quran also captures the narrative of punishment meted out which is most likely a reference to those that continued to remain obstinate rebels and did not heed a mighty prophet’s call to repent. (2:93 - "We hear and we rebel") This is a point, respectfully, that I humbly find missed in our late respected brother Asad’s commentary. (i.e. the call to repent and then punishment of those that did not heed)

Does the Quran then, seem to support the Biblical theme?

Please kindly remember, that from a Quran’s perspective a least, rebellion against a prophet of God, an agent of God, is a most heinous crime in the sight of the Almighty.

005.033
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

However, having contemplated the general themes, I also find solace in the following Quranic guidance:

002.134
"Those are a people who have passed away. Theirs is that which they earned, and yours is that which you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do"

Just some thoughts to facilitate the discussion, God willing.


REFERENCES:

[1] UNDERSTANDING THE TERM 'SUNNA' FROM A QURAN'S PERSPECTIVE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/understanding%20the%20sunna%20from%20a%20quran's%20perspective%20FM3.htm
[2] UNDERSTANDING SURAH TAUBA (CHAPTER 9) AND THE INFAMOUS KILLING VERSES
http://quransmessage.com/articles/surah%20tauba%20FM3.htm
[3] QURANIC PUNISHMENT - MURDER vs MANSLAUGHTER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/murder-manslaughter%20FM3.htm
[4] 'BETWEEN HIS HANDS' OR 'BEFORE IT' (MA BAYNA YADAYHI)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline wanderer

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2016, 07:42:44 AM »
Dear Brother Joseph--
Are you trying to say that the believing Children of Israel were ordered to slay the ones who began worshipping the calf? This does not seem right to me. Also, the following verses speak of the wrongdoers--the ones who did not repent--as being forgiven. Can you please clarify your point?
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline wanderer

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2016, 07:59:23 AM »
Ok, let me clarify my position further. What you seem to be implying is that stringent disbelievers are worthy of death simply for being disbelievers, and that "fassad fil-ard" can simply refer to anyone who opposes the prophets (even non-violently). This is a very disturbing allegation. Is this what you are saying? Please clarify.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2016, 08:01:28 AM »
Dear Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

I have just shared an elaborate response where I have clearly shared numerous times that corruption, rebellion and obstinate  behaviour had most likely arisen. I have hedged my response with so many parallel thoughts and themes which are not just restricted to calf-worshipping, but speak of God's sunna, the rebellion against a prophet (note prophet) and I have humbly underpinned my response with many themes supported by verses. With respect, I cannot see how you have interpreted my response restricted to calf-worshipping?

Dear Wanderer, like others on this forum, I endeavour hard to take time to share  thoughts with a view to assist others and provide with humility, food for thought. Please can I at least, kindly ask that you to allow the full ambit of one's thought a little time for contemplation, even if you are going to disagree?

Can I assume that you have read the supporting material I shared along with all the verses I shared?

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline wanderer

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2016, 08:07:25 AM »
Dear Joseph-
Let me assure you that my response to your post was not a knee jerk reaction. I thought about it deeply. However, I would just like to know what other crimes were the Children of Israel guilty of (at the time) besides calf-worshipping? And are you trying to say that the non-calf worshippers were ordered to kill the others? Because even if you do take "kill yourselves" literally, this is a command to suicide, not homicide.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2016, 08:30:34 AM »
Dear Wanderer

I believe what Br. Joseph is trying to tell us is that he does not agree with Muhammad Asad's interpretation. I am on the same page with Br. Joseph as evidenced by my previous posts. I too beleive that the sin of shirk and of disobeying a prophet is not a trivial one. I do not believe that it was an injuction to kill one's ego or to feel mortified.

God has said in the Quran at other places ( Br. Joseph has kindly provided some verses) that execution as expiation is acceptable. But, exiling them is also an option but execution still remains a viable option.

I do believe that the unbelivers were asked to kill themselves ( whether the believers kill them or they commit suicide does not matter that much, because the point is that the sinners were asked to sacrifice their lives as penance). Now, the subsequent verse goes on to describe how some of them denied to repent and asked to see God! God did cause them to die but resurrected them and also accepted their repentence afterward and provided sustenance for them.

Another point that I feel Br. Joseph was trying to make is that duelling on the details of events of which we are not eyewitnesses do not really serve much purpose as we will not be asked about the actions of our ancestors or descendants by Allah. We will only be accountable for our actions and the events we witnessed.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline wanderer

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2016, 08:40:30 AM »
The troubling thing about this interpretation is that it implies that anyone who opposes the prophets-- even non-violently-- can be classified under Fassad fil ard. The other issue is that when we read the verse in question, we see that a) kill yourselves is in fact a direction to the calf-worshippers and b) it was a former of repentance, which God accepted. This last point, in my mind, strongly implies that their death was not a literal occurrence.
Regards
Wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline good logic

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2016, 08:44:36 AM »
Peace All.

1-Arrogance ,desires and selfishness lead to rebellion and disobedience.

2-Submitting to GOD, being humble and listening to instructions from GOD leads to obedience.

Having the wrong priority and believing  that the "person"( flesh) is more important leads to  1) i.e Having an Ego

Having the right priority  and believing  the real person ( soul/spirit) is more important leads to 2) i.e No Ego

The Israelites disobeyed ( They heard and rebelled), hence Moses asked them to kill their "person" ( flesh) i.e Kill their Ego.

 Which just means Moses asked them to repent and submit ( kill their disobedient fleshy self/Kill their Ego)  ( So that they hear and obey) which leads to being forgiven.

My understanding.
GOD bless.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Nura

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2016, 08:52:55 AM »
Salam wanderer

In one of my previous posts ( reply number 3) I did clarify that this is a context specific verse. This verse does not call for all idol worshippers of all time to be killed or commit suicide ( however u want to see this command be carried out). This was a command during a time when a Prophet of God was among them, not only one, two ( Prophet Moses and Aaron).

I have also alluded to the possibilty that this command was given as a test to gauge their sincerity and faith in God. If u do believe in God and have faith in Him and a prophet tells you that God wants you to sacrifice your life as a penance for the sins u have committed , why would you disobey if u have unquestionable faith in God? Isn't life a gift from God? If He is offering forgiveness in exchange for life on Earth, why would'nt you take on that offer? U would only disobey, when u do not have staunch faith in God and His prophet.

I believe the command to kill themselves was a test to see how far they would be willing to go to show that they were repentant.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Moses and the Calf-Worshippers
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2016, 09:05:29 AM »
Dear Wanderer,

As respected sister Nura has in my view correctly shared, let me also kindly reiterate / assure you that worshipping a calf was never a small matter particularly in the context in which the Quran was narrating the story amidst a prophet of God and their particular circumstances. As I trust that you will appreciate, we simply cannot interpret this with our 21st century lenses applying it today’s circumstances when there is no prophet of God in our times.

They were honoured to have 2 mighty prophets in their midst. They had already witnessed great portents. We learn from verse 4:153 the timeline that in fact the taking of the calf was after all the portents had been previously shown to them. This is not just the parting of the seas and the numerous other portents, but also after when lightening had seized them and they had been resurrected. (2:55-56)

The matter was so serious that even the first and second commandment read "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...". This is how grave the matter was.

Even the Shema Yisrael to this day, a central prayer for the Jews captures the essence of Jewish belief: "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one"

This is no different from the concept of Tawhid in Islam.

I also kindly shared that rebellion and corruption had most likely arisen amidst the prophet. The Quran does not deem it necessary to detail this. However again, this is no small matter as the punishment for such obstinate behaviour is referred to by the Quran in many verses. I have already cited verse 5:33.  The Quran refers to their doing as evil (2:93 - bi'sama). Indeed, exile would have also been an option and the Quran does cite the case of As-Simiri, where that option was exercised (20:95).

The cry of the prophet is also captured in another verse where the rebellious nature of his people is cited with such emotion:

061.005
"And when Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do you hurt / persecute me? when certainly know indeed that I am God's messenger to you." Then when they deviated, God made their hearts turn aside, and God does not guide the transgressing / defiant people."

Finally, 'kill yourselves' does not simply refer to suicide. I discussed this in the following thread [1] below as thus:

"...the usage of the term 'anfusakum - yourselves' (plural) in verse 4:29 which in the theme of the verse is not only a reference to killing oneself, but also killing others whether singularly or as groups."

I trust this clarifies, at least my humble perspective, God willing
Joseph



REFERENCE:

[1] Committing Suicide
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=94.0
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell