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Offline Sardar Miyan

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How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« on: August 24, 2016, 06:05:21 AM »
Salam all, My grandson is a Hafiz and Alim and he says while praying behind an Imam we need not
utter Surah Fatiha or any other Surah but be quiet during silent Salaath but one can recite durin Ruku
& Sujood and in Qaida. Can someone throw light on this please?
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 07:21:40 AM »
Peace. Here is a statement from our Lord, of 17:110: "وَلَا تُخَافِتْ بِهَا وَابْتَغِ بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ سَبِيلًا" (some translations).
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 10:43:54 AM »
Our Imam says that when you are praying behind an Imam says that  you need not utter any thing as the Imam will recite and you have to recite during Ruku , Sajda and Qaida ( Atahiat, Kalima & Dua)
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Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 11:45:52 AM »
Salam Sardar Miyan

The real question is why is the Imam saying such a thing? Maybe because the attahiyat and other recitations the Imam is saying we can recite on our own( according to him) is constant for all, if prayer is offered in the traditional manner. Traditionally we all recite the same thing on those stages so it is not going to be any different than what the Imam is reciting.

But, when it comes to reciting the second surah after the recitation of surah fatiha, we have a lot of choices, anyone can choose to recite any sura, no matter how long or how short. But if that is allowed to happen then everyone will not be in synch while praying in congregation.Someone will finish prayer an hour before another, depending on the length of the sura he wishes to recite after surah fatiha.

Because of the ease of synching prayer with each other and the imam, they say we cannot recite anything we want at this stage. This will lead to the very real possibility of someone prostrating for fourth rakat and another for second rakat at the same time, for a four rakat salat.  This has no other reason in my opinion.

However, if we choose to recite the same surah along with the Imam, then what is the problem? This is not going to be possible all the time because traditionally most muslims offer some prayer silently. Which the Quran opposes. If you r not aware what surah the imam is reciting u cannot recite along with him, atleast during these so called silent prayers. That is why they justified it in their minds, that it doesn't matter, just follow the robotic movements of the imam. U will be ok during all prayers, silent or not silent. Doesn't matter what the imam is reciting. Just follow the Imam's lead!  All this is done to justify what they are doing. None of this is mentioned in Quran.

But the most important question is, why is the Imam saying such a thing? What is his source? When the Quran is absolutely  silent over what we should recite while praying and it is completely our choice. The Imam is only doing this for practical reasons, this has no Quranic sanction.
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 11:58:24 AM »
Thanks Nura for reply. I am also trying to contact some other scholars for their opinion. What our Imam say is duplication of reciting. But while we can recite all other things in Salaath why can we recite Surah Fatiha & other Surah which is why I want get others opinion.Thanks for sharing
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Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 12:09:59 PM »
Salam.

U r welcome. Why is duplication an issue? When multiple people are praying together, duplication is given. They make an issue out of duplication when it is not an issue at all. The Quran does not say that duplication is not allowed during praying in congregation. These things are not from the Quran. Duplication will also take place when we recite what they are saying it is ok to recite, i.e duplication of attahiyat. Why is then duplication of attahiyat not a problem? This is not logical. I have to recite something during prayer, that is why they allow the recitation of attahiyat. Otherwise we will all be reciting nothing behind an Imam, and bowing down and kneeling, not so different then what is done in an aerobics excercise  class. Nobody will believe them if they say we are going to be ok if we recite nothing and just bow and kneel when they bow and kneel. The Quran is very clear that we have to recite our prayers. We cannot remain silent and follow someone else during an entire prayer. They cannot get away making such a claim. That is why they say we can recite these things. What that imam is saying has no Quranic reason. It is simply for the ease of the imam. He cannot walk out or stop leading a prayer if one of us is not done and choose to recite a surah twice the size of the one he chose to recite. Just so that salat begins and ends at the same time with the imam, they claim such a thing. If u ask them to show where in the Quran this approach is described, they will not be able to show u anything that supports this practice from the Quran. The point is, this is not a Quranic thing. This is simply done for practical reasons.
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Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2016, 12:27:52 PM »
Salam Sardar Miyan

According to the Quran, there is no silent prayer. All prayer have to be offerend in a tone of voice that is not too loud or too quite.

We have to recite something during praying. The Quran asks us to recite our prayers. Talk to God. This claim is contrary to what the Quran says that , during praying behind an imam we do not have to recite anything. If the Wutanic requirement of recotation is not needed behind an imam, then why should we kneel or bow with him? The imam can do all the kneeling and bowing for us as well? Then bowing or kneeling down should not also matter. We can just all stand behind the imam and do nothing. The imam is not making sense, he is cherry picking and sayin things that have no Quranic sanction!
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2016, 02:08:50 PM »
Peace. Such a perspective is from descriptions (such as Ibn Kathirs) of 7:204.
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Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2016, 02:35:13 PM »
Salam Gahaiile

7:204
And when is recited the Quran, then listen to it and pay attention so that you may receive mercy.

Is asking us to be silent when the Prophet/ someone else used to recite the revelations he received i.e the Quran. The ayat is not telling us to listen silently to the Quran during prayer. Prayer is not the context here. The Quran is not only recited during prayers. This ayat tells us to listen to the Quran attentively, we are asked to listen silently i.e not talk among ourselveves/ interrupt recitation of Quran. This serves a purpose, if we continue to talk among ourselves then we won't be able to concentrate  and ponder about the verses. That is how we receive mercy from Quran, by pondering and extracting knowledge and wisdom. So that we r guided. Not that the act of remaining silent when someone else reads the Quran will earn u mercy. This doesn't happen. U do not receive mercy from reading Quran and if u do not ponder over its verses and apply its wisdom to lead your life. This ayat does not mean that when someone is reciting Quran now ( current times) in prayer, we have to remain silent and listen. We are not asked to remain silent during prayer in congregation. We are free to recite whatever surah we want standing behind the imam. But this is not done because of practical reasons so that everyone's prayer starts and ends with the imam. The verse u quoted is not talking about prayer or recitation during salat. The word salat does not even appear in 7:204 in the original arabic Quran.

U can always choose to read a short surah and wait for the imam, and bow down when he bows down. Or simply stop reciting at the point the imam bows down, we are asked to recite from Quran, but it is not a condition that an entire surah has to be recited. We can always choose to recite whatever verses we are connecting with when we are offering prayer.

Verses have to be read within the context of the Quran. It does not matter which sheikh or scholar says what. They were all fallible humans. They also quoted verses out of context.
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Offline munir rana

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 03:45:06 PM »
Dear Nura
Salam

You said
"This ayat (7:204) does not mean that when someone is reciting Quran now ( current times) in prayer, we have to remain silent and listen."

first of all, Is there any verse in Quran which clearly state that we have to recite Quran during salat. I know, salat involves utterance ( 4:43). But is it necessarily Quran recitation? If we take this as quran recitation, then why not to follow 7:204 as hearing the Imam.

I always like your responses very much.

Best regards.

Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 04:29:57 PM »
Salam Munir Rana

Thank you. May Allah bless us all with the company of like-minded people. I really like interacting with all of you on this forum.  :)

No there is no verse where it is asked of us to recite the Quran back during praying. But that does not mean we cannot recite the Quran back while praying. We are not told this is unacceptable either. This can be done as best practice since some of the verses are really sincere arabic prayers, i.e verses where we implore Allah to forgive us and bless us. I see nothing wrong in this provided we understand what we are saying.
During prayer we r asked to utter not listen to someone else's utterings. But we can choose to recite /utter the same surah along with the imam. But this will not be possible during Asr prayer since imams do not recite this prayer loudly enough. Actually they recite this prayer silently which is completely contrary to what is asked of us in the Quran.
Since they will not recite some prayer loudly, we won't be able to recite along with imam even if we want to. So they say it is acceptable to not recite the surahs because of various surah length. U may decide to recite a surah twice as big as the one the imam decides to read silently. This is unacceptable to them.
The question Sardar Miyan asked was not whether reciting Quran is allowed or not, so I did not say anything about whether we r asked to recite Quran in Salat in the first place.

Current traditional salat fulfills the requirement of the Quran, there is no need to re-invent the whole prayer ritual.

I agree wholeheartedly with the opinion of Br. Joseph in the link provided below:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1339.msg6267#msg6267
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Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2016, 04:52:25 PM »
U can always choose to recite a different sura or no sura at all. And bow with the imam. But you have to utter something during prayer. You will not be sinning if u do not recite what the imam is reciting. We can stop at any completed verse. A whole surah does not have to be recited. U can choose to communicate with God in your own language while the imam recites a surah. The choice is yours. If u don't remain silent u are not sinning. This requirement to remain silent is not a Quranic requirement. U can recite whatever you want.

We are simply asked to bow down with those who bow down but salat still remains a personal communion with Allah.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline munir rana

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 07:57:23 PM »
Dear Nura

Salam

I am also agreed greatly with Brother Joseph's view. "Current traditional salat fulfills the requirement of the Quran, there is no need to re-invent the whole prayer ritual."

But it also seems to me that, actually here we are compromising a few things for a greater cause (congressinal prayer). Otherwise, silent prayer is meaningless.

Even behind Imam if you utter words, you do it silently. But Quran commands to use moderate tone. And if we all start to recite various (different) verses behind the Imam with a moderate tone, it will make a chaos undoubtedly. It is not coherent for a congressional prayer also, I think. So to hear the recitation of Imam (when he recites) seems to acceptable also.
And of course, when Imam recites silently, we are free to read verses or any other prayers silently. I am agreed with you that we must not keep silent in that case.


Offline Nura

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 10:03:57 PM »
Salam munir rana

That is what I said in my first post on this topic. This is practised inorder to synch prayer in congregation. Otherwise one person may be in his second rakat and another person maybe performing fourth rakat at the same time. This is done for convinience. This was my point all along. :)
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline ilker

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Re: How to recite while praying behind an Imam
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2016, 06:48:30 AM »
Assalamu alaikum guys,

So what do you think about 15:87:

"And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an."

What do you think those often repeated seven ayat are ? I'm asking about this ayah because of its relevance to the recitation of the Quran in daily prayers.