Arab are not descendants of Abraham / Sacrificed son was Isaac, not Ishmael

[F]

Dear Joseph A. Islam,

Peace be upon you,

I read your article that Arab (Prophet Mohammad) is not from the offspring of Ishmael and Abraham as per your article http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

I realized that you referred to verses from Quran that “the Arab forefather received no Warner before; Abraham was the father “in faith only” to the believers, etc…” I don't want to argue with you from Quran or Islamic resources because we may never reach any agreement. Therefore, I decided to argue with you from the Torah.

Deuteronomy (18:18) “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.”

According to this verse, Allah told Moses that He will send a Prophet from the “Brothers of the Jewish”. Jewish are from the offspring of Isaac. Isaac’s brother was Ishmael. Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is from the offspring of Ishmael.

I hope that you are not going to dispute with me and say that the meaning of “Brothers of the Jewish” is “brothers in faith”.

I also read your article that you believe that the sacrifice son of Abraham was Isaac and not Ishmael as per your article http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm

Again I will discuss this topic with you from the Bible that tells us that the sacrificed son was Ishmael.

Genesis (16:16) Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Genesis (21:5) Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him

This concludes that Ishmael was 14 years older than Isaac.

Genesis (22:2) Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

In this verse, Allah told Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY SON, and Isaac is mentioned in this verse. This contradicts the other two verses because the ONLY SON Abraham would had at that time is Ishmael. So, it seems to me that someone added the word “Isaac” while was not aware of the age of the two boys Ishmael and Isaac.

I verified these verses from the bible. However, I should give the credit to "Simon Alfredo Caraballo" for his great book “My Great Love for Jesus Led Me to Islam” because I learned this information from his book, page 30. His book is available online for free.   

I would welcome your feedback. Thank you kindly for taking the time to read my post.

May the blessings of Allah be on all of the believers,

With great respect,

Brother Joseph: I am sorry that I am not highlighting important info because in fact the toolbar buttons are disabled on my account. I tried many ways to enable it but with no success.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

I think anyone on this forum or any Belivers would argue the best source to argue from would be the Quran.

Although the Quran is indeed a confirmation of what went before it there still remains areas or thought where the Quran corrects the understanding or fabrications of people before.

At times one will realize that what is in the Islamic tranditional thought is derived from purely the Torah or Bible. Which at times stands in total contrast of the Quran.

And at times one might find rituals or ideology that is derived purely from the Bible or Torah which the Quran remains silent about. However believers in the Quran would still take that as a requirement when the Quran does not deem it necessary.

The Quran is God's final message as you most likely already know which stands to correct the beliefs of the previous communities that God deemed neccessary and passed over much of what was invented in the name of God.

So if you find a topic in the Quran that the Bible or Torah differentiates with of course the Quran would be the authority and the protection of that topic.

If you see a concept/topic in the Quran and is also supported by the Bible or Torah know then this is further support to the concept/topic and maybe used as a evidence.

Also the verse you quoted from the Torah in Deuteronomy 18:18 in my humble opinion maybe referring to Jesus and not Muhammad (pbut).

Insha'Allah we will hear from brother Joseph in due time and Insha'Allah in the mean time I will get back to your other topic regarding Abrahams two sons.

Peace and blessings Insha'Allah

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace be upon you too.

Albeit, I feel that I could respectfully argue against your post from the Bible / OT, it is something that I feel would be futile from my humble perspective in the context you have kindly shared. I also agree with the gist of brother Hamzeh's sentiments.

You have claimed to share your position from the Torah by citing certain verses and choosing particular interpretations (notwithstanding contentions). I have respectively presented my humble position from the Quran, the final testament for believers and religious authority. With respect, the readership can make their own minds as to the most cogent perspective.

Unfortunately, this is not a post that I would be willing to entertain further. Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.

Regards,
Joseph


RELATED:

[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
[2] PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) SACRIFICIAL SON - ISHMAEL OR ISAAC? (pbut) 
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ishmael%20or%20isaac%20FM3.htm

[F]

Dear all,

Pease be upon you,

Hamzeh said in his post: “Also the verse you quoted from the Torah in Deuteronomy 18:18 in my humble opinion maybe referring to Jesus and not Muhammad (pbut).”

I appreciate your opinion and it seems to me that the proofs I provided from the Bible and Torah were not satisfactory for you. Therefore, I’ll first explain the question you asked about, and then explain with proofs from Quran that Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the offspring of Prophet Abraham, and Ishmael was indeed the sacrificed son (if Allah wills). 

Deuteronomy (18:18): I will raise up for them a prophet         LIKE YOU          from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Please read the verse carefully, Allah told Moses that    “a prophet LIKE you”.         Therefore the Prophet that Allah spoke about must be like Moses. Jesus is different than Moses. Moses birth was naturally, he came from a father and a mother, while Jesus came from only a mother. Therefore, indeed the prophet that Allah spoke about here is Mohammad.

Let's now discuss whether Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham or not from Quran:

(57:26) And We verily sent Noah and Abraham               and placed      the prophethood     and the scripture           among their seed,            and among them there is he who goeth right, but many of them are evil-livers.

I noticed that Brother Joseph said in his original article “In verse 57:26, the seed (Arabic: Dhurriyyati) of Prophets Noah and Abraham (pbut) are mentioned. No names of the seed are mentioned.”

Please note that Allah said in this verse "and placed     the prophethood         and the scripture       among their seed". Since Mohammad is a      “Prophet”,    and Allah sent to him      the scripture “Quran”,           therefore, he is automatically from the offspring of Abraham as to what the verse is telling us. Also, Allah did not mention names of Prophets in this verse because He said in (40:75) that there are many prophets came before Mohammad that Allah did not mention their names (at all) in Quran.

(40:75) Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee,        and some of whom        We have    not         told thee;

I also noticed in Joseph’s article that he did not mention verse (4:54) or even said anything about it which in my opinion is the clear evidence that Prophet Mohammad was from the       CHILDREN          of Prophet Abraham.

(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed          We have given to           Ibrahim's CHILDREN          the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1.   the Book
2.   and the wisdom
3.   and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the     children             of Prophet Abraham.

I also read article “DARUD SHAREEF PRAYER”
http://quransmessage.com/articles/darud%20shareef%20prayer%20FM3.htm

I noticed in this article that Joseph said “It is worth considering that if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his family were descendants of Prophet Abraham, (pbuh) why are they excluded from the 'Al' of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) in the 'Darud Shareef' prayer which is clearly dealing with two separate progenies?”

Well, I’ll be very cheerful to explain the reason.

In our prayer, we say:
1.   Greetings and prayers to Allah
2.   Peace be upon you, O Prophet, and Allah’s mercy and blessings be upon you
3.   Peace be upon us and upon the righteous servants of Allah
4.   I bear witness that there is no god but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Prophet
5.   I copied this part from Joseph’s article which I agree with it “O God, let your blessings come upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad (including his progeny),  as you have blessed Abraham and his progeny. Truly, you are Praiseworthy and Glorious"
6.   "O God, bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad (including his progeny), as you have blessed Abraham and his family (including progeny). Truly, you are Praiseworthy and Glorious".

The reason for #1 above is to greet Allah
The reason for # 2 is to greet Prophet Mohammad
The reason for # 3 is to greet all righteous mankind (from Adam till Day of Judgment)
The reason for # 4 is to testify that Allah alone is God, and Mohammad is His Prophet.

Please note that we don’t do any distinction between the Prophets of Allah as one may think, because we greet (send Peace) to all righteous people as in # 3, and all the Prophets of Allah are among the righteous people.

The reason of why we mention Mohammad with Allah in the testimony (Shahada) is only to testify and to acknowledge that he is the Prophet of Allah as in:

(3:86) How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief              and had witnessed           that the Messenger is true

(2:253) Those messengers - some of them We caused to exceed others. Among them were those to whom Allah spoke,                and He raised some of them in degree.

Allah raised some of His Prophets in degree. For Mohammad, Allah honored him to be mentioned everywhere i.e. when we call for prayer, with testimony, in our 5 daily prayers as in verse (94:4) And raised high for you your repute

Also Allah sent all Prophets before Mohammad for certain people or certain time, but He sent Mohammad for all nations and till the Day of Judgment.

(34:28) And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto                  all mankind

(33:40) Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and                 last of the prophets.

Also, Allah ordered the believers to honor Mohammad as in:

(7:157) Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet,… So they who have believed in him,        HONORED him,        supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful.

And the reason of why the family of Mohammad is excluded from the family of Abraham as in Joseph’s’ article is:
•   If you read in # 5 and # 6 above, the exclusion is between Mohammad & his family and Abraham & his family
•   We first mention Mohammad because we must honor him as I explained above
•   Then we mention Prophet Abraham because he is the forefather of the believers, and Allah said about parents:
(17:24) And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, “My Lord, have mercy upon them…”
 
Now, let’s discuss who the sacrificed son was, Isaac or Ishmael. 

(1)   (37:100) My Lord! grant me of the doers of good deeds.
The word is mentioned in Quran is (“Saleheen”, which is plural of “Saleh”) which means (righteous, doers of good deeds). The reason Abraham asked Allah in the plural because he wants righteous son and righteous descendants from this son. If you read verse (2:124), Allah told Abraham that He will make him a leader. Abraham immediately asked Allah “and of my descendants”.

(2)   (37:101) “So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.”
Please note that this was the     FIRST          good news. And Allah didn’t mention the name of the child.

(3)   Then from verses (37:102-7), Allah said that Abraham saw in a dream that he is sacrificing his son; then his son obeyed; before killing the son, Allah gave him an animal to sacrifice instead of his son). Please note that the story of Abraham and the sacrificed son is          finished          at this point.

(4)   Then from verses (37:108-11) Allah said that He was pleased with Abraham.

(5)   Then Allah told Abraham in verse (37:112) about the         SECOND            good news for another son and Allah mentioned the name of the child “Isaac”
(     AND        We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.) Please note that Allah started this verse with “AND” which means “one more son”.

Since the second son was Isaac, therefore, the first “good news” son was Ishmael.

Joseph said when he replied to my previous post: “Unfortunately, this is not a post that I would be willing to entertain further. Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.”

Although I appreciate you for taking the time to read and respond to my post, but, please note that the purpose that I decided to join your forum is to discuss Quran and understand it as much as possible, and to demonstrate our suggestions with proofs from Quran if we disagree with any post as long as it's discussed in a professional manner. Therefore, I disagree with you that you are not willing to continue discussing with me this topic. I believe it is the best time to respond to my analysis.

I would welcome any feedback. I know my article was lengthy, but thank you so much for taking the time to read it.

May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.

With peace and respect,

Brother Joseph: I am still unable to use the toolbar buttons, and it’s very important that I highlight some important words. I searched everywhere in your forum but with no luck. Would you please send me the instructions of how to enable it to my email that you have in the forum. (Thanks)

[wanderer]

"Please read the verse carefully, Allah told Moses that    “a prophet LIKE you”.         Therefore the Prophet that Allah spoke about must be like Moses. Jesus is different than Moses. Moses birth was naturally, he came from a father and a mother, while Jesus came from only a mother. Therefore, indeed the prophet that Allah spoke about here is Mohammad."

And Muhammad (pbuh) did have a virgin birth??? Please think about this carefully. Jesus (pbuh) has FAR more in common with Moses (pbuh) than Muhammad (pbuh) did.
Regards
wanderer

[wanderer]

Also--
"Please note that Allah said in this verse "and placed     the prophethood         and the scripture       among their seed". Since Mohammad is a      “Prophet”,    and Allah sent to him      the scripture “Quran”,           therefore, he is automatically from the offspring of Abraham as to what the verse is telling us."

How?? The verse is clearly dealing with LITERAL offspring, not 'SPIRITUAL'
Regards
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace,

If you do want me to participate in some semblance of a discussion, may I then kindly request that going forward, you do not provide me any lengthy responses or implied interpretations please. My argument will be from the Quran and if this is not something that you can argue from, then I would respectfully find it a futile discussion.

Therefore, please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.

Please kindly note, I will not be entertaining a long 'interpretive /implied' discussion as with respect, you have made an assertion and the burden of proof is with you to prove it.

PS: I've asked the moderators and tech and they don't feel that the toolbar issue is with your account.  Everyone else's also seems to be working correctly.  Please kindly try a different browser / computer to see if the problem is not account related. Thanks.

Regards,
Joseph

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

When I read your article of whether Prophet Mohammad is from the descendants of Prophet Abraham or not, I have noticed that you mentioned many verses to prove that he is not, but ignored to mention (4:54)

(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace?  But indeed          We have given to           Ibrahim's CHILDREN          the Book      and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Can you kindly explain to me the reasons of why you decided to exclude it. I believe that the readers have the right to know everything about Quran, and she/he alone can decide since there is no compulsion in Islam. Therefore, in order to be fair for the readers, I believe this verse should be included in your article.

ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.

With peace and respect,
 

[wanderer]

He didn't include it because it has no necessary  connection to the topic.
With all due respect, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell why it should be included in the article, before you lecture Joseph about "representing the message of the Quran to his readership".
Regrads
wanderer

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace be upon you.

Please let us be respectfully clear that the burden of proof is not for me to prove the negative (i.e. that the prophet Muhammad is not the descendant of Prophet Abraham), but the burden of proof is with you or anyone making the claim, to prove that prophet Muhammad is the direct descendant of Prophet Abraham as you appear to allege.

When I write my articles, the intention is not to cite every single related and implied verse from the Quran, but more than often, to carry the general gist of the argument.

If there is a verse that unequivocally proved from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad was a direct descendant of prophet Abraham and I did not include it, that would have been another matter.

Now you cite, verse 4:54.

Even taking your translation from 'Shakir' 'Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace?  But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's CHILDREN the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.’

With respect, how does that unequivocally prove the unequivocal descendancy of Prophet Muhammad? Firstly, let us not ignore the initial context as a dialogue with the People of the Book (4:47). Secondly, there were many other prophets that were given the Book and were prophets and who were the descendants of Abraham. Thirdly, this discussion was a reminder of events from the past (4:55).

How is this proof of Prophet Muhammad’s descendancy and why would there be an expectation for me to include this as a verse to prove otherwise?

Therefore, I will respectfully ask again.

Please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.

Regards,
Joseph

[Joseph Islam]

He didn't include it because it has no necessary  connection to the topic.
With all due respect, the burden of proof is on YOU to tell why it should be included in the article, before you lecture Joseph about "representing the message of the Quran to his readership".
Regrads
wanderer

Dear brother Wanderer,

As-salamu alaykum

My post seems to have crossed over with yours. You are absolutely correct. The burden of proof lies with the person that is making the claim and as I've respectfully shared in my post to F, this verse in my humble opinion, was not relevant to include either way.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

This is another proof that the sacrificed son was Ishmael.

The messengers of Allah told Abraham glad news.

•   (11:69) There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, "Peace!" He answered, "Peace!" and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.

The messengers of Allah told Abraham that they were sent against the people of Lut.

•   (11:70) But when he saw their hands went not towards the (meal), he felt some mistrust of them, and conceived a fear of them. They said: "Fear not: We have been sent against the people of Lut."

The wife of Abraham was    "nearby"     when the messengers of Allah told her that she will give birth to Isaac, who will have a son Jacob. Since she was nearby, therefore Abraham heard what they told her. Therefore, Abraham knew that his son Isaac would live until he begets Jacob.

•   His wife who was standing   "nearby",    smiled and so We gave her the glad news that       she would give birth to Isaac who would have a son, Jacob.

Allah told Abraham to sacrifice his son. If the son that Allah told him to sacrifice was Isaac, how then he will beget Jacob. Therefore, it’s clear that the son was Ishmael.

Please let me know what you think,

With great respect,

Note: I sent a note to QM Moderators Team that I tried few different computers/browsers to test the Toolbar buttons in my account but nothing worked. It’s still not working. Would you please follow with them. I am unable to change font color/size/bold, etc. This is an example of what would happen if I try to change color, etc: Test

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace be upon you.

With respect, you still have not provided me any direct, unequivocal proof that Prophet Muhammad is a direct descendant of Prophet Abraham.

Therefore, I will respectfully ask once again.

Please kindly cite me one unequivocal, unambiguous verse from the Quran which cogently proves that Prophet Muhammad is from the progeny or seed of Prophet Abraham. Only one verse please.

PS: You seem to have changed your text to 'red' successfully. Therefore, I would assume that there is nothing wrong with your account. I think you may be looking at the 'edit' window when you type your text and in that, any format is not immediately visible until one posts.

Regards,
Joseph

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

Thanks for your response. I said in my previous post that "This is another proof that the sacrificed son was Ishmael." Therefore, I am asking you in this post about the sacrificed son of Abraham. To be clear with you, please let's put the subject of (Arab/Prophet Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham) off the discussion, and let's focus ONLY on the sacrificed son of Abraham.

In your article, you said that according to Quran, the sacrificed son is "Isaac". I sent you two proofs from Quran that the sacrificed son is "Ishmael". Please reply only to this question.

Thank you kindly for your attention,

With peace and respect,

PS: regarding the Toolbar, when I sent you the example to show you what's happening when I click on change color, etc, I sent you the message that I received. In your post I didn't see the message that I sent to you and only seen the word "Test" in red color. I am still having the same problem. Any ways, don't worry about this any more. (Thanks) 
 

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace

Please kindly see the forum rules below regarding my conditions of engagement.

MY CONDITIONS OF DISCUSSION OR DEBATE
 - INCLUDING CRITIQUE OF MY ARTICLES OR PERSPECTIVES -

http://quransmessage.com/articles/debate%20FM3.htm

If you have no unequivocal evidence from the Quran regarding the descendancy of the Prophet as you have alleged in critique of my article, then please can you kindly say so / confirm and this thread / conversation will be closed.

This will be a clear indication that you have been unable to provide substantiating evidence to support your critique of the following article:

[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

Then as per forum conditions, please kindly open up another thread regarding the second article you wish to discuss / critique and God permitting, we can discuss that matter then.

Regards,
Joseph