Arab are not descendants of Abraham / Sacrificed son was Isaac, not Ishmael

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

In the article that I posted on your forum regarding “Can Women pray/fast during Menstruation” http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2139.0
I said “I know that sometimes I discuss more than one article in the same post but that only to save your time because both articles are related. If this is not acceptable with you, please advice me.” And I have not heard from you any response.

Any ways regarding your requests:
1.   You asked me for a verse from Quran to prove that Mohammad is from the offspring of Abraham. I have provided you verse (4:54) in my previous article as a clear proof. You decided that this verse is not a proof. Therefore, there is no reason for me to continue discussing this topic with you because I already knew your decision. This is what I said in my post below regarding verse (4:54):

(4:54) Shakir: Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed          We have given to           Ibrahim's CHILDREN          the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1.   the Book
2.   and the wisdom
3.   and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the     children             of Prophet Abraham.

2.   Regarding the second article about the sacrificed son of Abraham, I will open new article to post it as you requested.

With great respect,

[Joseph Islam]

Allah said in this verse that He gave “Ibrahim's children”:
1.   the Book
2.   and the wisdom
3.   and We have given them a grand kingdom.

Therefore, Prophet Mohammad is indeed from the children of Prophet Abraham.

Dear F,

Peace.

Please kindly have a look at the logic you are sharing:

You are trying to unequivocally prove from verse 4:54 that Prophet Muhammad is a direct descendant of Prophet Abraham.

Where in points 1, 2 and 3 is there mention of Prophet Muhammad? I have already shared with you there were other prophets that came from the progeny of prophet Abraham who were given the Books, wisdom and great Kingdoms. Prophet David is one such example. However, as I mentioned in the article, in verses 6:83-86, the seeds of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) are comprehensively defined and include: Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Zachariya, John, Jesus, Elias, Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot. (pbut)  Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not mentioned amongst them.

Therefore, how does this prove your point?

Dear F, with respect, if this is the kind of argumentation you are going to present, then I'm afraid I really do not have the time to dedicate to your critiques and why often now, I do not dedicate my time to this kind of argumentation or discussions.

Do you respectfully accept that you have no cogent evidence to prove your position on this matter?

Regards,
Joseph

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

Please note that this is my belief in this verse and I wanted to know your opinion. You have provided me with your opinion, and your efforts are very much appreciated. May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.

With peace and respect,

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace

If you are to provide an academic critique of a position, with respect, there has to be a certain standard of argumentation or rebuttal. This is not merely about sharing opposing opinions otherwise, you could have shared that from the outset that you had a different opinion. However, it seemed that you solicited an academic discourse as part of an academic critique.

If your view is merely to suggest you have a different opinion without corroboration of substantial evidence, then with respect, I will not be able to sustain any discussions with you.

Therefore, please kindly accept my response as my last to you on this matter.

Regards,
Joseph

[F]

Dear Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

First, my academic background is Industrial Engineer. I am interested in discussing/understanding Quran with unbiased and professional parties. When I discovered your website, it attracts me because you said in your articles "don't follow blindly", etc. I was under the impression that all members can mutually share their opinions in the same matter without enforcing our opinion unto anyone. When I share with you any argument, it does not mean that you or any member are wrong. It means that this is what I believe and I am seeking your opinion and the opinion of all members. At the end, no one has the right to enforce her/his decision unto anyone since this is the principle of Islam as in (2:256) there is no compulsion in matter of faith.
 
When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.

Thank you kindly for your time and cooperation. I look forward to your response.

With peace and respect,   

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

Peace.

With respect, I think you are missing the point. If you want to share your opinion, please kindly do. You already have my opinion in the form of the article. If you want to critique the opinion (please don't disguise this under 'discussion') because you simply disagree, then you will need to provide evidence. It is clear to me from the outset of this thread, you were never intending to ‘consult’, rather it appears that you have taken the stance to refute. That is why evidence was demanded of you respectfully, and I have strongly felt that you have not provided any cogent response to the request.

I am not imposing my viewpoint on you. My opinion is shared in public. If you have better unequivocal evidence in the form of a rebuttal, then please kindly share. If you do not, then you are of course, free to hold your opinion. However, please kindly do not expect me to comment where the discussion remit is seemingly futile to me. I hope you will kindly appreciate my position.

Once again, please kindly accept my sentiment as the last on this matter.

With utmost respect,

Regards,
Joseph

[good logic]

Peace F.

Since you said,quote:
It means that this is what I believe and I am seeking your opinion and the opinion of all members.

Please allow me to give you another opinion on this subject that might highlight some issues with this subject.

1= Regarding the descendants of Abraham

I believe it is irrelevant to argue/debate/... who has descended from Abraham.
 Qoran clearly indicates to the believers( All believers regardless of gender race or family tree) that Abraham is the father of all the believers. He was the one who named the believers" Muslimeen".
Qoran has some examples for us about Noah and his son. ( Ya nooh innahu laisa min ahlik"!!!
 And that all believers are brothers and sisters in the faith.
Abraham descendants are both believers and disbelievers.
Abraham is the father of the believers. He was the example and the precedent of true Islam.

2=Regarding sacrified son

Again irrelevant who Abraham tried to sacrifice as GOD did not order such an act. Some people try to claim Isaac or Ishmail and are proud of such act from Abraham!!!!
Ido not get where in the Qoran GOD ordered such an act?:
37:102 says:
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
Abraham saw in a dream. GOD does not order anyone to commit murder of the innocent. That is why it is irrelevant which son,the lesson is in the story regardless of who it was from the siblings.
7:28
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and God has commanded us to do it." Say, "God never advocates sin. Are you saying about God what you do not know?"
وَإِذا فَعَلوا فٰحِشَةً قالوا وَجَدنا عَلَيها ءاباءَنا وَاللَّهُ أَمَرَنا بِها قُل إِنَّ اللَّهَ لا يَأمُرُ بِالفَحشاءِ أَتَقولونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ ما لا تَعلَمونَ

On the contrary, GOD advocate justice :
16:90
God advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.
إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأمُرُ بِالعَدلِ وَالإِحسٰنِ وَإيتائِ ذِى القُربىٰ وَيَنهىٰ عَنِ الفَحشاءِ وَالمُنكَرِ وَالبَغىِ يَعِظُكُم لَعَلَّكُم تَذَكَّرونَ

In my opinion, the most important issue is to follow Abraham and be totally loyal and a true "Muslim" to GOD. In that case one would also  be following the last prophet s example. He was told to Follow Millat Abraham. Dedication to GOD Alone and following GOD s commands.
Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[F]

Dear All,

Good logic, thank you kindly for contributing your suggestions.

Regarding your first point, I agree with you that Abraham is the father of all the believers.

Regarding your second point that Allah doesn't order unjust or advocate sin. You said "Abraham saw in a dream. GOD does not order anyone to commit murder of the innocent." Please allow me to share with you my knowledge about this.

Allah doesn't want Abraham to kill his son. Allah showed him this dream only to test him. Once he obeyed Allah and agreed to sacrifice his son, Allah gave him an animal to sacrifice.

(29:2)  Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?

If you have any suggestion, please feel free to share it.     

Joseph, to save our time, I re-read your policy and this is the protocol you want your members to follow:

1) if we want to seek your opinion regarding an article that you already published and we may not agree with, we must say in the subject line the following:
Critique - [PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) SACRIFICIAL SON - ISHMAEL OR ISAAC? (pbut)] by [Author making the critique: F]
And only one article is to be discussed even if there are other articles that may be related, and only one post per day, and to wait until your respond.

2) if we want to ask any question, we don't have to write: "Critique... in the subject line.

If this correct, you don't have to reply to me. If this incorrect, please explain to me the protocol you want me to approach by giving me an example.

Thank you, May Allah guide all of us to the straight path,

Best regards,

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear F

Brother Joseph has kindly and respectfully took his time to clearly show you that the verse that you had provided as evidence (4:54) does not portray that Muhammad and Abraham are related. He went the extra step to explain to you who the children of Abraham were who were given the prophethood by verses 6:84-86. And clearly Muhammad is not mentioned in the verses nor anywhere else in the Quran that he is from the children of Abraham. On the contrary the article shows numerous verses to actually disprove the traditional view. It seems you have not acknowledged any of them.

6:84-86 And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.


If you note verse 42:13 you will realize that Muhammad is  clearly included in the verse along with other messengers as having the same religion as one another. But that does not equate to being from the same lineage. So you can see that verses 6:84-86 intentionally omitted prophet Muhammad for the reason that he was not part of their family.

42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

Also brother/sister you are absolutely correct you have the right and are free to believe in whatever you like, just as you have mentioned and as we all believe here that there is no compulsion in religion 2:256.

However may I kindly and respectfully caution that people who just simply reject or deny truth after proof has been presented maybe stepping in the section of those who are termed disbelievers (kuffar) by God. As you will note the examples in the Quran are many. Those who rejected clear arguments, proofs or miracles against their own beliefs were termed disbelievers (kuffar). So with all due respect and sincerity we all must remain vigilant when truth has been shown and hope for the best for each other.

you stated

When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.

Although I do not see how the verses you mentioned have anything to do with whats happening, I still find you had received kind, respectful and professional responses but can you please consider and imagine that if everyone simply questioned and argue just merely because they have doubts without providing any clear evidence or rebuttal where he had went wrong concerning the articles that Joseph has written and Masha'Allah there are numerous, what he would have to go through. Please remember he probably has continuous emails and discussions other places as well.


Insha'Allah peace and blessings

[F]

Dear Hamza,

I have read your post. Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply to my article. I decided not to comment on this topic anymore. However, I want to discuss with you and all members a different article that I will post on the forum with a title “Believing in “Prophet Mohammad” is a “Must” in order to enter Heaven”.

Once you have a moment, please read it and I would appreciate you and all members to comment on the article. The purpose of this debate is to understand Quran ONLY.

May Allah guide all of us to the straight path.

With peace and respect,

[Duster]

Asalamu Alykum

Dear F

Brother Joseph has kindly and respectfully took his time to clearly show you that the verse that you had provided as evidence (4:54) does not portray that Muhammad and Abraham are related. He went the extra step to explain to you who the children of Abraham were who were given the prophethood by verses 6:84-86. And clearly Muhammad is not mentioned in the verses nor anywhere else in the Quran that he is from the children of Abraham. On the contrary the article shows numerous verses to actually disprove the traditional view. It seems you have not acknowledged any of them.

6:84-86 And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good.
And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous.
And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds.


If you note verse 42:13 you will realize that Muhammad is  clearly included in the verse along with other messengers as having the same religion as one another. But that does not equate to being from the same lineage. So you can see that verses 6:84-86 intentionally omitted prophet Muhammad for the reason that he was not part of their family.

42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

Also brother/sister you are absolutely correct you have the right and are free to believe in whatever you like, just as you have mentioned and as we all believe here that there is no compulsion in religion 2:256.

However may I kindly and respectfully caution that people who just simply reject or deny truth after proof has been presented maybe stepping in the section of those who are termed disbelievers (kuffar) by God. As you will note the examples in the Quran are many. Those who rejected clear arguments, proofs or miracles against their own beliefs were termed disbelievers (kuffar). So with all due respect and sincerity we all must remain vigilant when truth has been shown and hope for the best for each other.

you stated

When I read any of your articles and if I have any doubts, I believe that I have every single right to discuss it with you and receive a professional response as in (3:159) And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you... and consult them in the matter; and as in (24:38) who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation. If this is not your policy, please advice me and I will not visit your website any more.

Although I do not see how the verses you mentioned have anything to do with whats happening, I still find you had received kind, respectful and professional responses but can you please consider and imagine that if everyone simply questioned and argue just merely because they have doubts without providing any clear evidence or rebuttal where he had went wrong concerning the articles that Joseph has written and Masha'Allah there are numerous, what he would have to go through. Please remember he probably has continuous emails and discussions other places as well.


Insha'Allah peace and blessings

Shalom / peace .....

Well Said brother Hamzeh ....May Allah bless you always>>>>

[good logic]

Peace F.
Thank you for your reply.

 Even though GOD tests all believers, do you really think that GOD would order anyone to break His commands?

You say you are interested in Qoran, I hope brother,  you check everything by studying GOD s words and reflecting on what they say!

Can we really ignore the majority of the clear verses that tell us who GOD is and what He instructs/commands and expects from the believers?

I do not really know what to say to you? 
Personally,I find Qoran clear and straightforward when describing who GOD is and what he does /instructs/commands etc...

I do not find anywhere in Qoran ,even the hint of GOD testing Abraham by ordering him to sacrifice his son?
 If you do please post the verse/s .
To me this will contradict a lot of the message of Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[F]

Dear good logic,

Peace be upon you,

I am sorry for being late. You have asked me in your previous post to provide you with a verse that Allah tested Abraham to sacrifice his son.

Allah said that He tested Abraham with specific orders, and Abraham did them i.e. obeyed Allah. Once Abraham obeyed Allah, Allah told him that He will make him a leader for mankind.

•   (2:124) And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

Then Allah said that Abraham saw a dream to sacrifice his son, and also said in verse (37:106) this was the test.

•   (37:106) Lo! that verily was a clear test.

Therefore, the dream was from Allah, not from Satan.

Allah also said:

•   (37:108) And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times

If you think this is incorrect, please explain what do you think.

With great respect,

[good logic]

Peace F.

Thank you for your reply.
Let us take the verses you quoted and see whether they have anything to do with GOD commanding/ordering/asking ...Abraham to sacrifice his son?

2:124: The context of this verse is explained in the following verses-2:125-132- i.e commands about the "rites of the millat/deen". Nothing to do with sacrificing a son!!!!

37:106: Please read the verses of the incident again. Nowhere does GOD say it was a test from Him?Do you think GOD tests people by asking them to break His commandments? :

37:104
We called him: "O Abraham.
وَنٰدَينٰهُ أَن يٰإِبرٰهيمُ
37:105
"You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.
قَد صَدَّقتَ الرُّءيا إِنّا كَذٰلِكَ نَجزِى المُحسِنينَ
37:106
That was an exacting test indeed.
إِنَّ هٰذا لَهُوَ البَلٰؤُا۟ المُبينُ
GOD is saying to Abraham "you have believed the dream". Abraham assumed /thought ...that he was ordered/...GOD then said "it was a test" ,not a test from GOD? If anything GOD saved him from carrying it  out because Abraham was loyal to GOD. GOD saves His devoted servants like in the case of Joseph here:
12:24
...We thus diverted evil and sin away from him, for he was one of our devoted servants.

Brother you are assuming that the test/command was from Allah! It does not say it in the verses you quoted. and does not say it in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.