Women's issues.. Again

[Amira]

Sleepyghoul, I have some advice for you. This thread is turning into a pointless argument about subjective opinions, reminiscent of what often happens on Free-Minds forum. Neither Hamzeh nor Good Logic is going to help you. They can't, and they have no interest in doing so. I know when a conversation is becoming unproductive, and I would suggest you leave this thread. You need to know when to leave a conversation that is going nowhere.

Regarding 4:3, there is variance in interpretation, but the word for orphans is masculine/neutral plural. It is rather difficult to turn this into "If you fear you will not be just with female orphans whom you wish to marry" unless you do a fair amount of acrobatics. 4:127 does reference female orphans/widowed women not being given their proper dowries, and 4:4 provides the solution: Just give them their dowries (it's not that hard). 4:2 and 4:3 are both speaking generically of orphans, either gender. I won't continue this topic on a public forum because it seems impossible for people to have a sane academic discussion of 4:3 or 4:34. It always devolves into anecdotal stories about so-and-so's wives. If you want to continue, email me from my website.

Regarding witnesses (since you brought this up in your first post), the issue has absolutely nothing to do with women forgetting their testimony. This understanding is only the result of demonstrable misinterpretation as I have explained. https://ifoceanswereink.wordpress.com/2017/06/15/witnesses-financial-transactions-adultery-and-deficiency-in-reason/

With regards to hur al ayn: http://quransmessage.com/articles/sexy%20female%20virgins%20for%20men%20in%20heaven%20FM3.htm
On this topic, as with most others, I have found Joseph Islam's scholarship to be good, but his is not the final word, and he has been wrong before.

As for 4:34, it is incredible that traditionalists think women can be "disciplined" for an unproven "wrongdoing" when the Quran mandates a judicial process to prove wrongdoing, and strictly forbids every type of slander. 4:34 only speaks of "feared (khafa) wrongdoing," which is unproven and absolutely cannot warrant punishment. Sleepysoul, it is your responsibility to realize when tragic mistakes in Quranic interpretation have occurred. You cannot rely on others to give you the answers to everything, because they can't, and won't.

With regards to the female angels thing, the Quran is condemning the hypocrisy of Arabs, who (apparently) disliked female children yet worshiped female deities. You have to put all the verses on "daughters vs. sons" together to get the full picture.

BTW--I have done some research, and pre-Islamic Arabs actually buried male children alive with almost the same frequency they did female children. They did not uniformly dislike women, either. Interestingly, the Quran specifically condemns the murder of female children, although it acknowledges male infanticide as well (see 17:31; here “children,” awlad, is in the masculine plural).

God does not tell us to abandon common sense while reading the Quran. Such a suggestion is insulting; don't listen to anyone who tells you "there is wisdom behind God commanding oppression." The "wisdom behind oppression" mantra has been used to mess with the Quran for centuries. And don't read Sahih International's or even Yusuf Ali's translations; they're unnecessarily convoluted and demonstrably wrong. I would suggest this translation: https://historyofislam.com/the-quran/

I won't reply further on this thread. I know from experience that public forums are counterproductive and discussions get derailed. Email me if you want. And don't feel bad for any of this. Islam's teachings on women have been corrupted beyond recognition. It's not your fault.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Amira

Sleepyghoul, I have some advice for you. This thread is turning into a pointless argument about subjective opinions, reminiscent of what often happens on Free-Minds forum. Neither Hamzeh nor Good Logic is going to help you. They can't, and they have no interest in doing so.

I think most of us are only hear for the sake of God and to spread a message of truth. I have no interest into proving anything to anyone that is not based on evidence. I am also here to learn and to take the best opinions from those who share them Insha'Allah. I am indeed interested in helping other for the sake of God and to provide comfort for brothers and sisters if God wills. I am not a scholar nor anyone claiming to have academic knowledge of any kind, but thanks to God I can recognize truth and love to share it and I have seen many others on this forum that do the same. Please do excuse me for any thing wrong that I said, it is I myself to blame if anyone did uncover some kind of false in my comments and I am happy that someone would address them so that we can reform and cleans the religion from its misconceptions Insha'Allah.

I agree sometimes things get out of hand in the process. Thanks for speaking up.

This is big deal of a topic for men as it is for a women. I think we all should understand our rights and what is lawful and forbidden.

I went over the verses and your comments, I gave it a little more thought and I am really trying hard to see it another way and trying to work out all the scenarios. However please see my views on this. I am not saying its correct but I can't see it the way you interpolated it. I can see two opinions fitting at this point but I will explain one now as I have some commitments I have to do and Insha'Allah I will give the other option that I can think of later. I also cannot see it your way for a couple reasons. If you may address these then I may possibly be convinced and I am willing and actually would love to be conclusive and convinced on this matter whatever it maybe.

You said

Regarding 4:3, there is variance in interpretation, but the word for orphans is masculine/neutral plural. It is rather difficult to turn this into "If you fear you will not be just with female orphans whom you wish to marry" unless you do a fair amount of acrobatics.

I agree

4:127 does reference female orphans/widowed women not being given their proper dowries,

At this point I respectfully disagree
"Ma kutiba lahunna" in verse 4:127 is what is ordained for them. This is of their inheritance. I do not see anything in this phrase that would suggest dowries. From what I recall dowries would refer to "ujhuuruhunna"

"Ma Kutiba lahunna"  is not a dowry. Because it seems like they have not married them yet and are desiring to marry them so the dowry would not be expected. It seems that God is saying that He has given you already instructions about the female orphans who you are not giving them what is written for them(ma kutiba lahunna) to begin with, the man is not giving them their inheritance yet the man is desiring to marry them. I find that God is condemning the man that your wishing to marry them and also take their money. Like that is very serious. God knows best

verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:3-4 would be speaking about orphan women. Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:2.

4:4 provides the solution: Just give them their dowries (it's not that hard)

.

I just can't see that the verse is speaking about dowries. I maybe missing something here

4:2 and 4:3 are both speaking generically of orphans, either gender. I won't continue this topic on a public forum because it seems impossible for people to have a sane academic discussion of 4:3 or 4:34. It always devolves into anecdotal stories about so-and-so's wives.

I agree as verse 4:2-3 would still cover male and female.

Also I find it kinda strange you said that last comment. I mean I found most people trying really hard on this forum to discuss things in a honest respectful academic way.

Anyways if your interested and I would like to hear what you think. To be honest you made a good point and I went over it but still a little puzzled. If you think you have a clear explanation please share it if you like.

Salam


 

[Hamzeh]

Correction
I meant and would like to rephrase this in my last post

verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:3-4 would be speaking about orphan women. Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:2.

verse 4:4 is a sadaqat, which is possibly referring to something that has been waiting for them like their inheritance or gift. If this translation would be fitting then I can see this making sense and verses 4:2 would be speaking about orphan women and men and verse 4:3 would be speaking about orphan women only.

Or the other opinion that I can think of is that this verse is now speaking about dowry and referring to verse 4:3 about the women who men marry.

[good logic]

Peace Amira.
Thank you for entering the conversation and thank you for your offer of help to Sleepysoul.
I may agree that men in general cannot help with the topic of polygamy, that is why I have not attempted nor pretended that I have an answer. Read my posts again if you have any doubt please.

On the other hand, it will be interesting for us men, if you elaborate/explain your views to us/ your take as well here, I have requested this in my posts.
 Of course it is your choice, but I for one will be grateful.

As far as what Qoran says about this and other topics, who can help better than the Author. GOD Alone.
Thanks once again and GOD bless you.
Peace

[Sleepysoul]

Salaam Amira,

I was thinking of asking to have this thread locked now anyway. (I'm a little surprised they didn't lock it already because for some reason I feel that discussions are not allowed to go on for too long on this forum but maybe I'm wrong).

I was feeling kind of mentally tired and down the day I posted this topic. I'm not exactly relying on others though I do think it's fine if someone's understanding makes sense to me. I mean.. by messaging you, you would be giving me your own understanding too..
Where else would I meet more people with a Qur'an focused mindset?
I agree that we have to do our own research and ponder on God's Message. In'sha'Allah I do hope to have some grasp of the Arabic language.

I do find Joseph Islam's article on hoors good and also quite a few others but of course we are all fallible. There are also claims that hoors are not companions at all. I came across such a video, I think I'll check it out.

It's not always that easy as a Muslim woman.

I want to say though, thanks Hamzah and Good Logic. I apologize if I was rude.
May Allah bless you all.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

Being a female I thought that I would add my contribution here

It has become more prevalent within Muslim communities that men only marry one woman at a time. I also agree with others that over the centuries, many scholars have interpreted the Quran and jurisprudence through a narrow male viewpoint.

However when it comes to marrying more that one wife, I am of the viewpoint that it is indeed a permission given to men by God and I am have to accept this.
The reason being that I believe in the Quran in its entirety but also acknowledge that I can't understand fully the reasoning behind all of verses. It may be something to do with the men and how they function and think differently when it comes to women.

Whatever the reasoning though, I do not believe that a man should secretly marry another wife as this has become commonplace unfortunately and leads to all sorts of issues.

Surely this is against the spirit of what a marriage is in Islam. Also as a wife myself, I would  ideally prefer to be the only one!

[Shahmatt]

There are advantages to polygamous marriages in terms of child upbringing and maintenance of household.

No family can survive without an income. The need for a breadwinner forces at least one family member (usually the man) to be away from the family for great parts of the day, sometimes weeks or months. A lone woman to take care of multiple children is a most difficult task. Polygamous marriages solve this problem.

For example there is more support taking care of children. If the mother of a child has trouble breast feeding another could possibly assist. The stress of upbringing, household work, cooking etc. is reduced.

It is common in modern families that the grandparents and family members assist with child upbringing. With polygamous marriages such intervention becomes less necessary.

I think that it is possible that polygamous marriages lead to family units that are more self reliant and stable. The singular marriage rather appears to be more of an artificial social construct and a relatively recent development in Western society.

[Shahmatt]

Having said the above we note that the Quran does provide some resistance to polygamy, and also showcases believers who were in a monogamous marriage. In addition polygamy has become a jarring concept in a modern discourse. For these reasons perhaps it should be discouraged. In any case with modern technology and conveniences the monogamous arrangement is more viable now than it has ever been in history.

[Duster]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Sleepysoul

Not all the time does the laws or the obedience to God in the Quran always need a logical explanation as to why its commanded. Not all the time does it need to fit with what we think is right.

Believers seem to hear and obey (2:85, 3:7). Why do we have to fast? Why is swine forbidden as its been consumed by many people without any harm and actually if one is in need of food God actually allowed it for consumption in cases of starvation.

It is clear from the Quran that Prophet Muhammad had wives. Also God makes it clear that men are permitted if they choose to have multiple wives (4:3). Also its not encouraged nor is it discouraged.

We all have different desires. Some we must try to shun off. With the help of God Insha'Allah He will help.

Although I can only assume as to why God made it permissible for men to have many wives only God knows best.

I can also speculate as to why women are commanded to only having one husband. I can see how much of problems can happen from having multiple husbands. Who would be the father of the children? What about on the womens menstruation? I can go on but it just seems very odd in my opinion.

Also the Quran actually does not permit men to be with women for lust. That completely different from marrying a women for her beauty.

The purpose for marriage is different than lust. One does not marry if he wanted lust. Lust is when one wants to have sexual relations without the responsibilities of being a husband and the responsibilities of marriage.

Lust needs to be controlled as even men or maybe women who desire it want it from not even beautiful women or men only.

Also what bro Joseph was saying from what I understood is that marrying a women for her beauty is not condemned from a Quranic perspective. That beauty is a valid reason to marry a women if she also so willed as there is some people who I've heard that said you cannot marry women because of their beauty alone. However verse 33:52 seems to negate that.

Those are my thoughts

Peace

An old topic which I just read ....Good response brother Hamzeh! ....

[AQL]

Pakistan has a long way to go but this is great progress:

https://dunyanews.tv/en/Crime/500518-Man-jailed-over-second-marriage-without-consent-of--first-wife