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Offline F

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Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« on: October 15, 2016, 12:01:15 PM »
Dear Joseph,

Salam-o Alaikum,

I have been searching the internet to find if anyone answers this question, but with no luck. Therefore, I decided to ask it to you.

•   Deuteronomy (18:18) I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.                 And I will        put my words          in his mouth,            and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Why Allah told Moses that he will “put His words in his mouth” since we already have his words (Torah)?

Why Allah didn’t tell Moses that I will send another Prophet “to teach the Torah that I gave to you”?

I am only guessing that the reason may be:

1)   Allah decided to change His words (Law) that He gave to Moses in the Torah. If so, why? Was the Law (Torah) that He has given to Moses incomplete? I doubt! Therefore, I am not convinced that this may be the reason.

2)   Allah knew that His Law (Torah) will be altered, and He wants to send another Prophet(s) to preach His correct words (Law). He wants to give mankind another chance(s). This is a logical suggestion for me.

3)   If my second guessing is correct, how much of the Torah was changed? Allah alone knows. Since Allah sent His final warning Quran and He promised to protect it till the Day of Judgment, then we must follow it alone.

•   Deuteronomy (18:19) And    he     that    will not    hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be          the revenger. 

Allah said that “And    he    that    will not    hear his words”: therefore, Allah wants ALL mankind to follow these specific words without adding a letter or omitting a letter.

I also found a verse which clearly tells us that the Torah is incorrect. I read an explanation to one person who said that the Torah which was with those specific scribes is the one that was altered, but other scribes have another copies of the correct Torah which what we have today. I was not convinced at all with his explanation.

•   Jeremiah (8:8) How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold,        the lying      pen       of the scribes        has made it         into a lie.

Would you please elaborate on my guessing and explain to me if I am wrong.

Thank you for your cooperation,

Best Regards,

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2016, 05:53:49 PM »
Dear F,

Wa alaikum assalam

If I may respectfully ask: Why do you on one side appear to doubt / question the integrity of the Torah and by virtue of the same stroke, use the same Torah verses to question and establish concepts?

If you are a believer (which I assume you no doubt are), why don't you establish your concepts from the last scripture in which God has spoken in His voice (i.e The Quran)? This is particularly when you appear to be questioning / establishing 'Islamic concepts'?

You also appear to be making use of broad interpretive licence to cite what can be deemed as ambiguous, isolated and subjective verses from the Torah, the integrity of the latter which you appear to question, to establish even more subjective questions / thoughts.

With respect, why do you not rely on the Quran for a Quranic interpretation? With utmost respect, it strongly feels to me that you have an agenda to prove a point and you are strongly subjecting yourself to confirmation bias.

Why do you not allow the Quranic testimony to fully lead you by allowing the evidence to take you to the truth?

Here is what the Quran says:

There are different shariahs (religious laws) instituted and recognised by God and there is no doubt about this from a Quranic perspective.

005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

There are different rites instituted and recognised by God. There is no doubt about this too:

022.067-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: [See above 5.48] let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ."

At the time of the prophet, the previous scriptures must have been in tact and the law / message clear, otherwise God would not have said the following:

005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith.

005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."

005.046
"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Torah that had come before him (Arabic: Bayna yadayhi) : We sent him the Gospel: in it was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."

The Quran recognises two sources of law and guides:

028.049
"Say (to them, O Muhammad): Then bring a Book from the presence of God which is a BETTER GUIDE (ahda) than BOTH OF THEM (minhuma) that I may follow it (attabi'hu) if you are truthful (sadiqeen)"

Please kindly think about this.

Regards,
Joseph

REFERENCES:

[1] A SINCERE MESSAGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/a%20sincere%20message%20FM2.htm
[2] PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS & CHRISTIANS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
[3] THE TWO GUIDES - THE QURAN AND THE BIBLE
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481
[4] 'BETWEEN HIS HANDS' OR 'BEFORE IT' (MA BAYNA YADAYHI)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
[5] LAMBASTING THE BIBLE
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=146.msg370#msg370
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline QM Moderators Team

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2016, 10:35:26 PM »
F

Your posts have been removed.  Either you learn to remain respectful and abstain from being unnecessarily contentious or you will be banned from this forum.

Please see forum policy 2c.



Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2016, 12:01:49 AM »
Dear F,

Wa alaikum assalam

I have acquired your post from the moderators and I have removed from the post what they have found completely objectionable and pasted what was relevant on this thread. The reason I have done this is so that anything which is unduly personal is removed whilst you are given every chance to share your views. This should also keep you off the radar of the moderators.

From what has been removed:

  • Can I kindly request that you do not consider making brash statements such as your statement “making me spend time to answer your questions”. Members of this forum give up much time to answer your questions (including my humble self) where we have no obligation to do so. With respect, your time is not more valuable than anyone else on this forum and you cannot simply 'demand' others to respond. If you expect others to spend time answering your questions, I humbly believe they have every right to expect you to answer theirs. We are all helping each other.
  • Please also do not accuse me (or anyone else in future) of not answering your questions. I understand that the moderators will not tolerate this and I too will find this extremely objectionable and in poor taste. I have humbly tried to dedicate numerous writings to assist others and have also tried to assist you where with respect, I have no obligation to do so each time you request a response.

Regarding the remainder of your post below, I will respond when I have time to do so and if I deem appropriate, God willing. However, I will leave the remainder of your post for others to respond if they feel they have anything valuable to add and if they so desire to converse with you on this matter.


Please kindly note that you 'objectionable' comments have been removed from the post below.

Regards,
Joseph

Quote
Dear Joseph,

Salam-o Alaikum,

Let me answer your questions and ask you other questions.

1.   You said “If I may respectfully ask: Why do you on one side appear to doubt / question the integrity of the Torah and by virtue of the same stroke, use the same Torah verses to question and establish concepts?”

•   Please note that I already answered this question in my original post. I said “If my second guessing is correct, how much of the Torah was changed? Allah alone knows.” Therefore, I didn’t say that 100% of the Torah was changed. Thus, I am using the verses from Torah that coincide with Quran. In Quran, Allah said that Jesus informed “children of Israel” that Allah will send another Prophet his name is “Ahmed”.

(61:6) And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said,          “O children of Israel,          indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you         confirming what came before me of the Torah       and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me,       whose name is Ahmad."         But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic.”

Please note that Allah said in this verse that “confirming what came before me of the Torah”, but in this verse Allah didn’t say if the Torah that they have with them is accurate or not. Then Allah answered this question in this verse and told us that it’s incorrect:

(2:75) Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when     a party of them         used to listen to the word of Allah,        then used to change it,            after they had understood it, knowingly?

2.   You also said “If you are a believer (which I assume you no doubt are), why don't you establish your concepts from the last scripture in which God has spoken in His voice (i.e The Quran)? This is particularly when you appear to be questioning / establishing 'Islamic concepts'?”

I read few of your articles and I found that you also used the Bible/Torah to explain your argument. i.e. http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/jesus%20ministry%20FM3.htm

Please note that the reason I used the specific verses from the Torah that I mentioned in my previous post is to save your time and my time. I don’t want to ask you vague questions, then, you reply to me “what do you mean here, etc.”

3.   You said “You also appear to be making use of broad interpretive licence to cite unambiguous, isolated and subjective verses from the Torah, the integrity of the latter which you appear to question, to establish even more subjective questions / thoughts.”

•   Please note that I already answered this question too at the end of post. I said “Would you please elaborate on my    guessing    and     explain to me    if I am wrong.”     I don’t know if my thinking is correct and instead of keep thinking about it, I decided to ask you to help me understand the meaning of these specific verses in the Torah.


4.   You said “With respect, why do you not rely on the Quran for a Quranic interpretation? With utmost respect, it strongly feels to me that you have an agenda to prove a point and you are strongly subjecting yourself to confirmation bias.

•   Absolutely, not. When I read one of your articles and I have questions, then I ask you specific questions to help me understand your argument. The purpose of my questions is I don’t want to be unjust to you and make a quick conclusion that I disagree with Joseph, and keep thinking about your article the rest of my life, and on the other hand, I don’t want to follow blindly (as what you already recommended your readers in your website). 

5.   Let me now explain to you of what    I think     the meaning of the verses you mentioned from Quran. And please help me to understand if my thoughts are incorrect.

•   005.048 (part)
"...To each among you have We prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan).

When Allah said “To each among you”, I think that He meant “To each among mankind from Adam till Mohammad”. For instance, for the people of Jesus, Allah sent the Bible and He wants the people to follow it alone, and to stop following the previous message i.e. Torah, and so on.

•   022.067-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow:

I think the same as I explained above. Allah meant with “To every people” is “to the people of Abraham, etc, then Moses, then Jesus, then Mohammad”. Otherwise, why would Allah said in the same verse “do invite (them) to thy Lord”. I think Allah meant "invite them to the new Law (Quran)". When Allah said “invite them to thy Lord” mean “invite them to thy Lord THE WAY HE ORDERED, not the way we want”. And that was the purpose Allah sent Quran.

•   At the time of the prophet, the previous scriptures must have been in tact and the law / message clear, otherwise God would not have said the following:
005.068
"Say: "O People of the Book! you have no ground to stand upon unless you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that comes to you from thy Lord, that increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But do not grieve over disbelieving people"

My question is why then Allah said in (2:75) Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when     a party of them         used to listen to the word of Allah,        then used to change it,            after they had understood it, knowingly?

I think Allah meant “you firmly stand by (Arabic: Tuqimu) the Torah, the Gospel,” is the    original      Torah and Gospel        that they altered.      Allah already told us in Quran that they claim that Jesus is Allah, etc. Therefore, it does not make any sense to me that Allah meant the books that they had at Mohammad’s time.

•   005.043
But why do they come to you for decision, when they have (their own) Torah before them? therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not People of Faith. 

My question is: why then Allah said that He sent    Mohammad for   All People (including Jewish, Christians, and so on),    and why Allah said in the same verse that       All People    Must    believe in him and follow him (i.e. follow Quran that Allah sent to him).

(7:158) Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind,         indeed I am the Messenger of Allah       to you all,        [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death."    So believe in Allah      and His Messenger,       the unlettered prophet,    who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided.


Thank you for your cooperation. May Allah guide all mankind to the truth.


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline F

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2016, 12:24:17 AM »
Dear Brother Joseph,

Peace be upon you,

I sent my previous post before I received your post.

Before making any conclusion, please ask me. In this post, you said that you removed my post because I said  “making me spend time to answer your questions”. I meant that I am dedicating a lot of time to read your articles and try to understand your opinion by analyzing and researching. The reason I am doing this is because Allah is not a "joke". I believe that I should take every thing extremely serious. That's the reason I spend time to research and ask questions. 

When I send you any post, I have never demanded an immediate response. I am always willing and prepare to wait until YOU have the time to reply.   

I do apologize for my previous comments that I will not visit your website any more. I'll continue to visit it, and when you have the time, please reply to my post.

Peace,

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2016, 12:31:01 AM »
Dear F,

Wa alaikum assalam,

Please kindly see my efforts to try and assist you. I would really like you to feel welcomed here and that is why I've had your post re-instated. I really do not like to overrule the decisions made on this forum. Even your last post has been removed as I'm sure you wouldn't want that posted  :)

Please enjoy your time here, ask questions, 'wait' for responses but please (which I'm sure you will) acknowledge the depth of wisdom and time that others share with you too. (I'm sure you will, God willing). I have seen some very good responses to your posts by others. (Those brothers and sisters know who they are :) )

God bless.

Regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Nura

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2016, 02:49:59 AM »
Salam F,

When I was new to this forum, my initial interactions with Brother Joseph were all about Torah, Bible, and how the Quran replaces the Torah and Bible ( this is an errant belief I inherited from traditional understanding of Islam). I had baggage from my previous beliefs which I was surprised to find out had no warrant from the Quran. I had the same questions that are bothering you currently. I read Brother Joseph's articles and posts, conducted my own research and reached the conclusions he did. I can tell you that no one in this forum takes anyone's claims as truth without verification. We encourage such an approach to faith.

Initially, I did not understand the differences between the terms 'muslims' and 'mumin'.

Muslim- is anyone that submits to the will of Allah. Prophet Moses and Jesus have been called muslims in the Quran.

Mumin- anyone who believes in all the books of God, all the prophets, last day, angels. All the books that they were aware of. Prophet Moses called himself a mumin in the Quran.

I also initially believed that, all people including Children of Israel are asked to follow the laws in the Quran. But, I was wrong. The Quran was revealed to 7th century Arabs and talks to two distinct groups of people among them. The Quran addresses ' People of the book' also known as 'Children of Israel' and another group called 'pagans' or simply put, other people who did not receive scripture from God. The Quran calls the Book that was present between the hands of 'Children of Israel' during Muhammad's time as a guidance and furqan as well. The Torah present during this time among the Arabs was not fully corrupted. And even with the corruptions, God still calls this Book( Torah) ,  a Book of guidance and truth.  God is saying in the Quran, that even after everything, truth can be found in the Torah. Whose assurance is needed after Allah has spoken?

Both the Torah's and the Quran's shariah is recognized and sanctioned by Allah in the Quran.

The Quran asks the two groups to behave differently,

Children of Israel- were asked not to be the first to disbelieve in Muhammad and the Quran. They knew that humans are sent by God as Prophets and messengers. People from among the 'Children of Israel' were chosen as prophets. But, Muhammad was not from among the 'Children of Israel' so out of this jealousy they were denying his prophethood. And Allah says that they were informed that a prophet not from among them will come.

Anyway, the 'Children of Israel' is asked to believe that Muhammad is a prophet and Quran is another revelation. But they are not asked to abandon the shariah in the Torah. In other words, their shariah is also recognized. Allah has chosen from all people, a certain group, the 'Children of Israel' who will have a different shariah than all other believers. Only believers from among 'Children of Israel' are asked to follow the shariah in the Torah, no one else. For others, the shariah of the Quran is asked to be followed.

In the Quran, even after, they believed Muhammad as a prophet and Quran as a revelation, Allah still calls them 'muslim' and  '  Children of Israel'. This is because once they believe in all the books including Quran and all the prophets including Muhammad, they become muslim and mumin but they have to follow Torah's shariah. This is absolutely clear when one reads the Arabic without the influence of secondary sources.

Pagans- includes people who never received a book from God, before Quran and also people who are not 'Children of Israel'. It does not matter whether these communities previously had sacred books or not. Only the 'Children of Israel' were allowed to follow the Torah and its shariah. Others, who are not from among the 'Children of Israel' are asked to follow the Quran.

This plurality of shariah is very hard to accept if one is reluctant to let go of the traditional understanding of Islam. I struggled to accept this. But, Allah helped me to accept it once I saw the truth and consciously decided to accept the truth, that the traditional Islam I learnt, is founded on beliefs that have no warrant from the Quran. It was a very difficult time for me. But, it does get better, when all you really want from God is truth and knowledge and put aside everything you ever learnt about Islam and start to read the Quran for yourself.

I hope brothers and sisters will correct my understanding if I am wrong about any of this.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2016, 04:24:02 AM »
Asalamu Alykum

Dear F

From what I have seen over the years which I been on this forum is that brother Joseph has responded to so many people who had questions concerning his articles and posts and many many times replied to questions that were repeats. It will be come apparent to the readers of the forum that people from all over the world had come into contact of this website and were somehow struck with questions because it had captured them some way or another Masha'Allah. It seems like the readers were captured by the articles and the proof presented to them but they needed just a couple more answers to there thoughts to comfort there hearts. Now over the years Alhamdulila one may search on this website and may notice that their questions or at least similar ones has already been answered by Joseph.

It's obvious and cannot be ignored to the readers of this website that Masha'Allah he has made a great deal of effort to try to tackle each one of them. But its cannot be expected to always keep on doing this. One must at times try to put their self in his position and realize how exhausting that could be on one soul. Insha'Allah with hard work for the sake of Allah(swt) comes a great reward. May Allah(swt) reward him and all those out there seeking His pleasure.

So thats why I am asking you kindly to research as many articles and posts as you can concerning your questions and you will Insha'Allah form your own views on certain topics and form your own ideas about the truth. Its obvious that from one question answered stems another related question. But with due time Insha'Allah you will realize the consistency in the thoughts and answers to questions.

I will try to add some information to the questions you had inquired in your first post Insha'Allah.

The books of Moses was not incomplete. God had preferred and chosen to guide the Children of Israel. There revelation was sent to them only and was not to be spread and reach the whole world. They had been given the books of Moses as a guidance and a light. It was explained in detail. There religion was Islam. Islam was always the religion of God. It was always complete. Through time God has chosen and picked certain people to send His guidance upon through different way and different scriptures and messengers. This was done on purpose so that God may test all of us in what He has given us. please see verse 5:48. It was arguably not because the previous people had altered what was given to them that caused the Quran to be revealed. Only God knows if that's why or why not.

Also we need to remember that God had guided Adam. And people were one nation at first. But when they diverted from the truth God then bestowed His guidance and favour upon whom He wills.

Then in the footsteps of the Children of Israel was sent Jesus(pbuh) with guidance and light confirming the previous scripture and reminding them of the truth and in the same stroke guiding a new people.

Then after him was sent Muhammad(pbuh) with the last scripture. It is confirming the previous scriptures, correcting and protecting them in matters that God wanted and deemed necessary and at the same stroke and primarily guiding a new people who were never guided before. And continually using the Quran to spread all over to whom ever it may reach. Also it is expected from everyone to not disbelieve in it no matter who one is when it had reached and made manifest to them. The Quran also relieves those of the People of the book from all their previous burdens and obligations that was put on them example the sabbath, the restrictions of food etc.

6:154 Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.

17:2 We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the children of Israel, saying: Choose no guardian beside Me.

32:23 We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

40:53 And We verily gave Moses the guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture,


you stated
Quote
2)   Allah knew that His Law (Torah) will be altered, and He wants to send another Prophet(s) to preach His correct words (Law). He wants to give mankind another chance(s). This is a logical suggestion for me.

3)   If my second guessing is correct, how much of the Torah was changed? Allah alone knows. Since Allah sent His final warning Quran and He promised to protect it till the Day of Judgment, then we must follow it alone.

Of course Allah(swt) knows everything. But even before the Quran was revealed the People of the Book would still be able to form the truth from what they have altered and concealed. From a Quran's perspective at least the truth was still available with what they have with them.

One has to realize at times that even a protected book from God (Quran) shows that the message can be changed in the minds of the people. It seems to me that the Revelations before the Quran was not protected in a form of a Book or orally. People had added and concealed from what God has revealed.

We know from the Quran the people had concealed "much"(katheeran) from the book that was given to them. God then says he forgives or passes over much of what they concealed and does not deem it necessary to go over every single detail. However the Quran is a guardian/protection of the previous scripture. But this does not say that truth cannot be derived from the previous books. This does not allow or give warrant to people of the book who have not been in contact with the Quran to believe in false hood. They are still able to come to truth about the oneness of God through their Scriptures.

5:15 O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;


These are my understandings and Insha'Allah that helps.

Peace

Offline Nura

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 06:13:38 AM »
Salam Brother Hamzeh

I have learnt a lot from your informative posts on this forum and would like to take this opportunity to thank you and all the brothers and sisters on this forum. All of you have been a source of knowledge and comfort for me on many occassions.

Brother I agree with almost all of what you said to Brother F in your reply except for one thing, the requirement of keeping Sabbath for 'Children of Israel' has not been lifted in the Quran. I have not come across any verse in the Quran that says that Sabbath has been lifted. I am posting a link of a discusssiin where brother Joseph also makes says this. Please take a look at reply number 4 in the following link:

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1484.0

For ease of others, who do not have sufficient time to go through the entire thread I am quoting brother Joseph's reply number 4 here:
Quote
Dear brother Hamzeh and sister Seraphina,

Thank you both for your posts and comments.

Brother Hamzeh - You share:

"...The only verse that I can think of that brings tension to this concept is 7:157-158..."

Before I comment further, please find below a section in the article [1] below, where I have discussed these verses. Please let me know if you find the explanation addressing any tension that you may have perceived.

Regards,
Joseph


Quote(20)   
 FOLLOWING THE FINAL MESSENGER FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
 
007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.
 
The burdens and fetters could thus possibly be a reference to the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet. Those that followed the messenger, believed him, honoured him and listened to his advice and calling would have had these difficulties removed.

Furthermore, all prophets of the past undertook a covenant with their communities that if a messenger were to come within their midst, they would be expected to render him aid and assistance. This would be no different for the monotheists of the People of the Book that came into contact with the ministry of the Arabian Prophet (Muhammad). They would be expected to do the same.
 
Any messenger would confirm the existing scriptures (despite the differences in law 5:48) and this is what the Quran repeatedly does.  Therefore, verse 7:157 can also be argued to serve as a reminder to the previous monotheistic communities of the covenant already taken with them as a people (3:81).
 
003.081
"And when God took a covenant* the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger (Arabic: rasulun) comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must help (Arabic: walatansurunnahu) him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My Covenant in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you"
 
* Please see related article [2] below.
 
007.158
“Say: "O mankind! I am sent to you all (Arabic: Jami'an), as the Messenger of God, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no God but He: it is He That gives both life and death. So believe in God and His Messenger, the gentile Prophet, who believes in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."
 



REFERENCES:

[1] PEOPLE OF THE BOOK (JEWS & CHRISTIANS)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
[2] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
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Offline F

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2016, 06:15:54 AM »
Wa-alaykom as-salam,

Thank you kindly for your comments. I have one question to ask, and please help me to understand ONLY this point.

Nora stated in her post: “Anyway, the 'Children of Israel' is asked to believe that Muhammad is a prophet and Quran is another revelation.     But they are       not        asked       to abandon             the shariah in the Torah.”

Let’s assume this is correct, can you please explain to me of why then Allah told Moses in the Torah that        whoever (including Jews and Christians)        don’t follow this new Prophet (i.e. new shariah)        will be punished            in Hell Fire:

•   Deuteronomy (18:19) And    he     that    will not    hear his words,       which he shall speak                    In my name,               I will be          the    revenger.

Sincerely,


Offline Nura

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2016, 06:30:39 AM »
Salam brother Hamzeh

Sorry, I was typing on my phone and I did not notice that I quoted the the wrong reply and modification time was up. This reply from Brother Joseph on that link says that Sabbath was not lifted in the Quran :
Quote
Dear Hamzeh,

Wa alaikum assalam

Without intending to become overly complex in providing you with a humble response, it should be noted, that the main thrust of theses verses that you share is to emphasise that there was an expectation for the Christian and Jews at the time of the Prophetic ministry, to follow their Scriptures sent by God with sincerity, faithfulness and in truth.

They were expected to be judged by the laws in these Scriptures.  After all, all such Divinely inspired teachings are ultimately from Him.

However, in my humble opinion, it can be safely posited that from a Quran's perspective at least, there is no ‘explicit’ requirement for those of the people of the Book that follow their revelations correctly and in truth, to simply abandon them. For example, the Jews are not expected to abandon their laws, such as keeping the Sabbath or any other religious observances. However, they are expected to accept the veracity of the Quran as a revelation from God once the truth of it has been completely manifested to them. This remains key.

Whether today's Jews and Christians with their numerous sects are following their Books justly, or in truth, is a totally different matter and would require a very detailed discussion which is outside the scope of this response.

For example, was it ever the intention of the Gospels to remove Mosaic laws such as the keeping of the Sabbath or abstinence from consuming swine flesh or was its intention to keep to the laws strictly? (5:46) What are the justifications given by certain Christians to abandon those laws and are such justifications correct / cogent? (etc)

The Quran also challenges errant theologies, but at the same stroke refers the People of the Book back to their Books. This somewhat  implies that these errant theologies (such as the alleged relationship of prophet Jesus and God) are not necessarily sourced / supported by these Scriptures and are ‘arguably’ errant beliefs which are read into the scriptures without warrant.

As you can see, this will become a very complicated matter requiring detailed scrutiny and discussion. However, the emphasis to keep to their scriptures in truth remains imperative, regardless.

As far as your question regarding ‘conversion’ is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference.

I hope that clarifies, God willing
Joseph
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Offline Nura

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 07:05:57 AM »
Salam F,

I think Brother Joseph asked you why are you quoting the Bible? The Bible and Torah is a source of guidance for only the 'Children of Israel'. Only the 'Children of Israel' is asked to follow the laws in them.

I did not quote from the Bible or the Torah to make my point. Why are you quoting Bible or Torah as a rebuttal?  Whatever I have said, I have given you the links of similar posts, where Brother Joseph and others have posted the verses from the Quran.

You said:
Quote
Let’s assume this is correct, can you please explain to me of why then Allah told Moses in the Torah that  whoever (including Jews and Christians)  don’t follow this new Prophet (i.e. new shariah) will be punished in Hell Fire:
•   Deuteronomy (18:19) And he that will not hear his words,  which he shall speak  In my name,   I will be  the    revenger.

Again, following the new prophet, does not automatically mean adopting his shariah. Why are you putting shariah within parentheses? The  Hebrew word for shariah does not appear in the Torah in this verse. Please do not put your own words into parentheses and claim the Torah says this. This verse from Deutronomy claims exactly what the Quran also says, that people of the book have to listen and consider what Muhammad says and cannot dismiss him without consideration. They cannot disbelieve in Muhammad knowingly. If they knowingly disbelief in Muhammad and that He is a Prophet and Quran is a revelation from the same God, they will be punished. The Torah and Bible never says that a new shariah will come for 'Children of Israel' and that they have to abandon their own shariah and adopt Quran's shariah. The Quran agrees with the Torah.

Are you deliberately overlooking the point we are trying to make,  that the Quran says that God approves of plurality and there is more than one shariah? This point has been made using the Quran, why are you using the Torah? None of us quoted the Torah to you, and Brother Joseph has criticized you for taking this approach to prove your unfounded and preconceived beliefs, why are you still doing this? Why do you stubbornly keep on posting your point of view , when a few of us have already refuted your points successfully from the Quran? This kind of attitude will not help you learn. You have to be comfortable with letting your errant beliefs change when ample evidence have been provided to prove your beliefs to be without any warrant from the Quran.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2016, 08:13:39 AM »
Wa alykum wa salam sister Nura

Thank you very much for your kind words, you are a very respected person. I would also like to thank you for your efforts as well and may Allah(swt) always keep me close to the believers and strengthen them with myself and also strengthen me with them Insha'Allah. I thank Allah(swt) for allowing me to reach such a beautiful website and get to know the thoughts and knowledge He has bestowed on its members. May Allah(swt) bless you all.

Thank you again for bringing my attention to both the excerpts you have quoted from other posts. I think they are actually both relevant to the topic.

I agree that the Sabbath was not explicitly or maybe even implicitly lifted in the Quran.

According to verse 7:157 brother Joseph seems to say that the burdens and fetters that they used to be on are possibly the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions etc. but does not conclusively state that it could be also a reference to the Laws that was imposed on them by God. This is where I am trying to figure out if those Laws maybe seen as lifted if they accept the veracity of the Quran? I at this point am not quite sure as I also assume brother Joseph is not conclusive on this issue.

"The burdens and fetters could thus possibly be a reference to the self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet. Those that followed the messenger, believed him, honoured him and listened to his advice and calling would have had these difficulties removed."

He does state in the other excerpt you quoted that it can be seen as a option given to them.
 
"As far as your question regarding ‘conversion’ is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference."

This observation I feel is where I stand at the moment. As I try to put myself in the position of those People of the Book in the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Would I adapt to Islam by the Quranic way of life? Also I do take inconsideration that the People of the Book had a prophet of God in their midst so it maybe a little different than any other times.

Also a few questions comes to mind when considering this verse 5:5

5:5 This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

If one was to marry from the virtuous women from the People of the Book, does she get to exercise the Quranic way of life such as Ramadan, the 5 daily prayers, hajj etc? Or would the women from the People of the Book have to only exercise their own laws or both? Obviously both would not be reasonable.

Also what would the offspring choose as a way of life? This could be argued they could take whatever ways the father is.

Also I also would assume to those who are from the People of the Book, that the Quran does seem to be a great help to understanding their own Scriptures in truth.

I have only read the 5 Books of Moses so far and up to Samuel II in the Prophets. There does seem to be a lot of overlap confirmation, and there is some things that I can assume to be fabricated. This I possibly would not have known of its fabrications unless I read the Quran however this maybe due to my limited knowledge in the previous scriptures.

Peace :)

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2016, 09:12:54 AM »
Asalamu Alykum

Also something worth to ponder about is that those burdens and fetters that verse 7:157 is speaking of can possibly indeed be regarding what brother Joseph did state in that post that it was the "self-imposed extra Biblical traditions, incorrect practices or difficulties of the People of the Book, prevalent with those in the vicinity of the Prophet.".

As one may argue that God does not impose burdens and hardship that one can not bare in religion. Thought I would also point that out.

Quote
"As far as your question regarding ‘conversion’ is concerned; if one prefers to follow Islam underpinned by the Quranic way of life as a righteous, committed believer, then this should not necessarily be seen as a contradiction of verses 5:44-47. It can be posited as an option though not an 'expectation' as is usually the belief of the traditional masses. That I feel, is the difference."

Salam  :)

Offline Duster

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Re: Is the Torah we have today accurate?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2016, 09:18:24 AM »
Shalom/peace.....what great contributions....sister Nura, bro Hamzeh and ofcourse respected brother Joseph....

....something you said brother Hamzeh

Also what would the offspring choose as a way of life? This could be argued they could take whatever ways the father is.

Do you think that is why the Quran allows marriage with righteous women of the Book explicitly but is silent regarding believing women marrying righteous men of the Book?

I did note something very related in brother Joseph's article. Very interesting.....see the bold bit below.....》》

 
Quote
There is Quranic silence on marriages between righteous men of the People of the Book and between Muslim women. The Quran neither sanctions such a marriage, nor does it prohibit it as in the case of verse 2:221 with regards marriages with idolaters.
 
Whether this has been left to the ever changing landscapes of societies, conditions, circumstances and on a case by case basis can be argued in light of the Quranic silence. It is important to remember that women of 7th century Arabia had very different circumstances to deal with as do the women of for example today, where they enjoy far more autonomy and independence. However, many aspects have to be considered and any marriage is a solemn contract between a man and a woman which needs to have ratification before marriage with the consent of both parties. Pressures of such a marriage and the implication on children must be seriously considered [4]. In such a case, all the provisos of ascertaining 'muh-sanatu' would still apply.