Is the Torah we have today accurate?

[Duster]

But also nice to see how open and non- committed it is left.  Quite rightly brother Joseph doesn't commit.....Open to shura / consultation......》》》

[Nura]

Salam Brother Hamzeh

Brother Joseph has actually stated that he doesn't believe that the actual Biblical laws that were revealed in the Torah are not suspended by the Quran. He also gives a reasoning for this belief that both Shariah comes from the same God and also God does not say that the shariah in the Quran that of the Torah's.

Brother Joseph said:

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." 

At no point does the verse above state that those that follow the previous scriptures should abandon the judgment or laws given by their own scriptures. The verse itself expounds the context. The Prophet clearly is being informed as one who forbids them of what is wrong or disliked (Arabic: munkar) and makes lawful for them that which is right. This cannot be a reference to the Jewish commandments as it is unacceptable from a Quran's position to assert that the Biblical commandments were either wrong (Arabic: munkar), bad or impure (Arabic: Khabitha), especially when verses 5:43-47 clearly indicate otherwise.

After my own readings of the Quran, I am of the opinion, that the Quran corrects errant beliefs that have been read into the Torah and also difficult extra-scriptural laws that the 'Children of Israel'  made for themselves such as monasticism. Monasticism was never prescribed by God. And the laws that were over-ruled in the Quran are specifically mentioned, like they can now consume animal fats and can have our food and marry pious women from among the people of the Quran. By 'overlooking much' , I believe God is saying that Prophet Muhammad has not made a religious comment about a lot of things that have been misunderstood in Torah, indicating that God is going to overlook these transgressions because He has chosen to not comment about them. I take it as following or not following these extra-biblical laws, that were not revealed by God, are not a religious concern anymore as God has decided to overlook them. But, 'Children of Israel' can only choose to not follow the laws that have been specifically mentioned to be in error or has been corrected in Quran. They are asked to follow the other laws because those laws are not lifted.

The People of the book will not be sinning if they still choose to follow their own shatiah. As to which shariah the children from such marriages will follow? Well it depends on them. They are both 'Children of Israel' and also have the blood of the believers. They can choose to follow any one of the approved shariah. After all both sharia is sanctioned and accepted by God. To God we are all muslims and submitters, it doesnt matter which shariah we are following as long as it is one of the God approved shariahs.

[Duster]

To God we are all muslims and submitters, it doesnt matter which shariah we are following as long as it is one of the God approved shariahs.

Shalom / peace sister Nura .....Yes and although differnt shariah, it is still part of the same 'deen' ...

Holy Quran: 042.013
"The same religion (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that you should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"

》》》So the deen can have different shariah's and different rites. As these are all for the same God - Allah! ...This all fits like a jigsaw puzzle...when you clear traditional confusions.....it all starts to fit together........Alhumdolillah

[Nura]

Salam Brothers

It is for very practical reasons that the Quran has asked children to be named after their fathers. One such reason is that, during 7^thcentury Arabia, the fathers were the financial providers, and so the name of the father was important so that the person can be brought to justice if he does not provide for his children. Even today, no one wants to provide for children, if paternity is not confirmed. Inheritance distribution was also affected if father was not known. Also because sustaining two surnames in the long run will give rise to such a big name that it is impractical to name a child with both the father's and mother's surname, such a practice cannot be sustained in the long term future.

But, naming a child with the father's name does not automatically mean, the child has to inherit father's religion. such an interpretation is unwarranted. Father's name is associated with inheritance and providing livelihood, not religious belief.

About chaste believing women getting married to chaste men from ' People of the book', there is a silence. This proves that this is not outlawed. But, a lot have to be taken into consideration before marrying into other groups of believers. This stands true for both men and women.

[F]

Dear Nora:

Salam-o alykom,

When I asked my question regarding:

“Nora stated in her post: “Anyway, the 'Children of Israel' is asked to believe that Muhammad is a prophet and Quran is another revelation.     But they are       not        asked       to abandon             the shariah in the Torah.”

Let’s assume this is correct, can you please explain to me of why then Allah told Moses in the Torah that        whoever (including Jews and Christians)        don’t follow this new Prophet (i.e. new shariah)        will be punished            in Hell Fire:

•   Deuteronomy (18:19) And    he     that    will not    hear his words,       which he shall speak                    In my name,               I will be          the    revenger.”

You replied to me: “I think Brother Joseph asked you why are you quoting the Bible?”

Please note that when I asked my question, I was under the impression that you have already read the response that I replied to Joseph. Let me Quote to you what I replied to Joseph:

"1.   You said “If I may respectfully ask: Why do you on one side appear to doubt / question the integrity of the Torah and by virtue of the same stroke, use the same Torah verses to question and establish concepts?”

•   Please note that I already answered this question in my original post. I said “If my second guessing is correct, how much of the Torah was changed? Allah alone knows.” Therefore, I didn’t say that 100% of the Torah was changed. Thus, I am using the verses from Torah that coincide with Quran. In Quran, Allah said that Jesus informed “children of Israel” that Allah will send another Prophet his name is “Ahmed”.

(61:6) And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said,          “O children of Israel,          indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you         confirming what came before me of the Torah       and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me,       whose name is Ahmad."         But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic.”

Please note that Allah said in this verse that “confirming what came before me of the Torah”, but in this verse Allah didn’t say if the Torah that they have with them is accurate or not. Then Allah answered this question in this verse and told us that it’s incorrect:

(2:75) Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when     a party of them         used to listen to the word of Allah,        then used to change it,            after they had understood it, knowingly?

Please note that all your efforts are very much appreciated; there is no reason to reply to my post anymore because I don’t want to waste your value time, but of course you are welcome to discuss it with other members.

However, I am awaiting a response from Brother Joseph regarding the first post in this article. Once I receive a reply from him, then I’ll decide.

Have a joyful weekend,

With peace and respect,

[Joseph Islam]

Dear F,

As-salamu alaykum

With utmost respect, learned brothers and sisters have already attempted to assist you (Jazāk Allāh to the kind souls), but it appears you have not heeded their input / wisdom or accepted it. In my humble view, this is disappointing.

You cite Deuteronomy 18:18 which speaks of a prophet from their 'brethren'. This is clearly a reference to a prophet from amongst the Children of Israel, most likely a Jew or a Jewish prophet. To link 'brethren' in any other way to prophet Abraham (which is unproven from the Quran) or completely ignore how the term is used in the main in the Book of Deuteronomy or wider OT, would in my humble view, be a travesty.

This interpretation is arguably sealed even in the previous verses. Please kindly note verse 18:15ff, where this is clearly a reference to the Israelites.

Here are the verses in context:

King James Version:

15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Some translations even account for this interpretation in their translations: [NIV]

15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.


For this to be a reference to Prophet Muhammad, please kindly note that the burden of proof is with you to provide me unequivocal evidence from the Quran that Muhammad was from the 'brethren' of the Children of Israel (i.e. a Jew).

In my humble view, you have already been unable to show any cogent evidence for a lineage connection to Prophet Abraham, let alone the Children of Israel. [1]

You share:

• Deuteronomy (18:18) I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Why Allah told Moses that he will “put His words in his mouth” since we already have his words (Torah)?

Why Allah didn’t tell Moses that I will send another Prophet “to teach the Torah that I gave to you”?

My humble response to this would be, why would He need to? The verse provides news of a prophet to come and it is quite simple as that. This is part of a general covenant that departing prophets have given to their people i.e. glad tidings of continuous guidance.

This view could even be supported by the Quran:

002:038
“We said: Go down / forth, all of you, from hence; but verily there comes to you from Me a guidance; and whosoever follows My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve”
 
003.081
"And when God took a covenant (through - See reference [2] below) the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger (Arabic: rasulun) comes to you confirming that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must help (Arabic: walatansurunnahu) him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My Covenant in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you"

Please kindly see article [2] below.

It is also noteworthy, that it was not unheard of for nations to claim cessation of guidance.

040:034
"And indeed, Joseph came to you before with clear arguments, but you ever remained in doubt as to what he brought; until when he died, you said: God will never raise a messenger after him. Thus does God cause him to err who is a transgressor, a doubter"

You then proceed to cite Deuteronomy 18:19

• Deuteronomy (18:19) And he that will not hear his words, which he shall speak in my name, I will be the revenger. 

Allah said that “And he that will not hear his words”: therefore, Allah wants ALL mankind to follow these specific words without adding a letter or omitting a letter.

With respect, how did you deduce that as the only interpretation?

Again, if you look at verse 3:81 of the Quran, the covenant was that they were expected to believe a new prophet and aid him. The verses in the Bible simply shares the same expectation. i.e  God will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on His behalf. This is supported by the very next verse of the Quran.

003:082
"Then whoever turns away after this, they are perverted transgressors / wrongdoers / disobedient (Arabic: fasiqun)"

That is true for each and every nation or people that came in touch with the God's appointed agents.

Therefore in summary, the verses simply present tidings of a prophet to come after Prophet Moses from their brethren (i.e. the Children of Israel) whom they were expected to hearken / listen to.

With respect and regards,
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] Arab are not descendants of Abraham / Sacrificed son was Isaac, not Ishmael
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2134.msg10898#msg10898
[2] IS VERSE 3:81 A REFERENCE TO ANY PARTICULAR MESSENGER?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3-81%20FM3.htm
[3] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu alykum

Masha'Allah brother Joseph

Subhan Allah. Allah has indeed confirmed the previous scriptures. Thank you for presenting the relationship in the verses of the Quran and the Bible.

May Allah (swt) bless you and increase you in knowledge

Salam