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Offline Nura

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Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2016, 06:39:32 PM »
Salam Wakas

I am aware of the absence of gender neutral words in Arabic. And thank u for clarifying that u don't consider the Quran calling Mary female as enough evidence for her being female. But for me the Bible and Quran calling her a female is the evidence that she was a female.

For your information, I have read up on intersex and the possibility of a pregnancy. I never claimed u were denying a miracle pregnancy, I understood that your version of Mary's miracle pregnancy constitutes pregnancy of an intersex.

But, biologically speaking intersex people rarely have fully grown and functional male or female reproductive organs and moreover the possibility of a self-impregnation is more rare hence I understand why u r claiming this to be the miracle rather than a normal female being impregnated without a male. Maybe, this is easy for u to accept for me both is easy to accept. But, since the Bible and Quran both call Mary a female and God knows whether a person is only a female from outside or also on the genetic level, I will believe God and believe that she was a full female.

You believe, God calls Mary a female in both the Bible and the Quran because she looked like a female but genetically she was an intersex. But, I believe she was a female on genetic level as well because she was called a female. I am aware that I cannot prove this without genetic testing and neither can u prove ur point without genetic testing . So, we have reached an impasse.

My reason for believing Mary was a female is the usage of the words that stand for female for Mary in both the Bible and Quran. I will say to God, if I am asked to defend my beliefs, that I believed Mary to be both genetically and phenotypically a female because the Quran and Bible called her a female. Not something that was neither implied in scripture nor there was any explicit proof from scripture or outside scripture to assume that she was not a female.

With respect, u r claiming confirmation bias on my part, why should I highlight them for you? The burden of proof is on u to provide that I committed confirmation bias. I simply asked u why u did'nt believe Mary was a female eventhough the Quran uses the Arabic words for a female to describe her, I do not see why u got offended! I did apologise for misunderstanding u and I meant it. I did ask u for an explanation, because I truly wanted to understand your point, not to dismiss it without warrant!
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Nura

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Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2016, 08:16:28 PM »
Salam All

43:19
they have made the angels, who are servants of the Most Merciful, females. Did they witness their creation? Their testimony will be recorded, and they will be questioned.

We can see that in 49:13, God corrects an assumption about the angels' gender. From this we learn that God corrects our understanding whenever we make assumptions about creations of which we do not have any idea. God did not make any such claims or corrections about Mary when the people called her a female. God did not correct the Biblical understanding that Mary was a female. If u r not genetically a female, u r not a female, no matter what u look like outside.

We are asked did we witness the creation of angels that we assume they are females? God is clearly admonishing us for making such assumptions about things of which we are not witnesses. Our speech will be recorded and we will be asked to provide proof for our beliefs.

I have not witnessed Mary's creation so I cannot say Mary was an intersex with any certainty, and I cannot provide proofs for such a belief. Mary was an intersex remains an assumption with no explicit proof from scripture or any other credible source. I do not want to make that assumption about Mary. It remains a possibility, that Mary was an intersex person, but this possibility is without any warrant from scripture or other credible sources. No one can surely say that Mary was an intersex person with explicit proof. But Mary was a female is also a possibility, one with justification from scripture and other sources outside scripture.

For believing Mary was a female, I can quote the Quran and Bible to God as an explanation for my beliefs and also the fact that the scripture made no explicit indication that Mary was an intersex. The verses quoted as implicit proofs for believing that Mary was intersex, have alternate interpretations/ explanations. Both Brother Joseph and I have provided alternative interpretation/ explanations for those verses. Some people have found our explanations unacceptable. That is their prerogative. The Quran did not make any attempts to correct the Biblical understanding about Mary's gender and pregnancy. But made many declarations that Mary was a female:

1) God makes use of the word for female to refer to Mary in both Bible and Quran i.e God calls Mary a female
2) Mary's mother calls her a female in Quran and Bible
3) Mary herself calls her a female in Quran and Bible

People in sources outside scripture also called Mary a female:

1)Mary's contemporary knew her as a female
2)Past and present believers of the Bible and Quran call her a female

Thus, I would also call her a female simply because I can provide justifications for such a belief rather than assumptions that have no concrete basis neither from scripture nor from other credible sources.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Wakas

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Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2016, 05:58:54 AM »
Dear Hamzeh
salaam/peace,

From reading this post and others i am assuming from your perspective that intersex is something that happens in humans although it is very very rare?
Quote

Correct.

Quote
Or at least from your perspective that Marry was a intersex and your saying that there is other humans who have this condition and also became pregnant without the interference of another human being?

I am saying mary being intersex is a possibility.

Quote
Can you please give me a reference where an intersex human delivered a child on its own?

I have not studied it in detail, but here are some references:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/4767456/Science-of-the-Virgin-Birth.html

Offline Nura

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Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2016, 07:41:06 AM »
Salam

The news of an intersex pregnancy, resulting from self-impregnation, occuring to someone who is not Mary proves that Mary was not an intersex. How?

The Quran declares that Mary was chosen as a sign, over all of womankind/ intersex (according to some people). Mary herself was also a sign of God, her virgin pregnancy was one of the signs. No woman till date gave birth as a virgin. If a virgin pregnancy of an intersex occurs, which one of the links by Wakas says there are 11 reported cases of  pregnancies in true hermaphrodites, but the paper does not say that these pregnancies were virgin pregnancies and a result of self-inpregnation or self fertilization. But all of these 11 pregnancies could have resulted from mating, the article is silent on this. As long as this issue is not clear it proves only that hermaphrodites can become pregnant and give birth to boys. All 11 cases resulted in the birth of boy babies. 

This link below shows that self-impregnation occured at least once in someone who is an intersex:

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/hermaphrodite-impregnates-self-gives-birth-to-hermaphrodite-twins/#comment-395909

This happened, then Mary was conclusively not an intersex simply because then Mary only does not remain the chosen one. Mary was to be the only virgin woman mother in the history of mankind, the Quran says so, that it has chosen Mary over all female humans. The birth of a messenger through a human set of parents or a messenger having a mother is not a miracle. Every messenger had a human mother, except Adam. But, Mary was the only woman till date to give birth as a virgin. Another intersex person already accomplished this feat, then Mary was undoubtedly a woman, otherwise Mary no longer remains the only chosen one! If and only if Mary was a true genetic woman, does the Quran remain true to it's claims and Mary's pregnancy remains the one true virgin miracle pregnancy of a genetic woman.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Abdurrahman

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Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2016, 01:09:41 AM »
Dears,

I have read your post. Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply to my article.  Allah guide all of us to the straight path.

With peace and respect,
Abdurrahman