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Offline Student

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Genesis 19:30-38
« on: October 29, 2016, 05:06:54 PM »
The Origin of Moab and Ammon
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar and settled in the hill country, and his two daughters with him, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. He lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 Then the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on the earth to come into us as is the way of all the earth. 32 Come, let’s make our father drink wine, and let’s lie with him, so that we can preserve our father’s seed.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn went in and lay with her father. But he didn’t know when she lay down nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the next day that the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine again tonight. Then you go in and lie with him, so that we can preserve our father’s seed.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down nor when she got up.

36 Thus both of Lot’s daughters were with child by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab. He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben Ammi. He is the father of the children of Ammon to this day.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Genesis/19

Found one thread but no comment from Sir Joseph:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=628.msg2353#msg2353

Br. Hope stated this:
Quote
Story of Lut is one of the inconsistencies in the Bible.  Though he has been considered a righteous servant of God in Genesis:18,  yet in 19 we are told that he was guilty of incestuous sex with his daughters: clearly a fabrication.  Quran states that he was given wisdom and knowledge

My question is - was this a fabrication pre-Quranic revelation or post? Or in general, do you (Sir Joseph) happen to know or come across interpolation and tampering in the OT and NT after the Quran revelation?

Please shed some light at your time and convenience, while I'm posing the questions on difficult topics as I read OT from top down and then intend to read NT inshallah.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Genesis 19:30-38
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 06:21:52 PM »
Dear Student,

As-salamu alaykum

With all due respect dear brother, I will not be able to dedicate much time at the moment to provide detail responses to Bible specific questions and follow-ups. There are a plethora of Quranic queries / areas of work that I still have to address / pursue and would therefore, not be able to dedicate time on other areas of my work, including the Ahadith corpus.

Also, as I trust that you will appreciate, this is not a Bible study forum per se, but a Quran forum, albeit I appreciate that Biblical related questions will arise worth exploring, particularly from a Quran reconciliation perspective.

However, learned brothers and sisters are free to discuss Biblical related topics (hence the dedicated board), as I know some already have, particularly brother Zack who I know has contributed much valued sentiments hitherto in this area.

Finally, please also kindly appreciate the value of seeking input from the learned of the People of the Book too. The internet is replete with sources of information, discourses and well established academia.

There is also more than an implied hint that is the approach God conferred on the Prophet himself. If he was in doubt, he was asked to reach out to the People of the Book regarding their scriptures to ratify. If this approach was good for the prophet, then it should certainly be good for believers. This one can argue, is indeed a Quranic perspective.

016.043
“And before you also the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message
 
021.007-8
“Before you, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: If you do not know, ask of those who possess the Message. Nor did We give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they exempt from death”


Regards,
Joseph


RELATED ARTICLE:

[1] ASK THOSE THAT HAVE KNOWLEDGE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ask%20one%20with%20knowledge%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Zack

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Re: Genesis 19:30-38
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 11:19:14 PM »

Br. Hope stated this:
Quote
Story of Lut is one of the inconsistencies in the Bible.  Though he has been considered a righteous servant of God in Genesis:18,  yet in 19 we are told that he was guilty of incestuous sex with his daughters: clearly a fabrication.  Quran states that he was given wisdom and knowledge

My question is - was this a fabrication pre-Quranic revelation or post? Or in general, do you (Sir Joseph) happen to know or come across interpolation and tampering in the OT and NT after the Quran revelation?


Hello Student,

I am not sure what you are referring to when you say inconsistencies? Guilty of sin but being a messenger of God? A few points....
- The Qur'an emphasizes the righteous obedience of God's Messengers preaching a message of repentance as an example for others.
- The Books of the Bible present a more chronological narrative.... presenting "the good, the bad, and the ugly" of all of mankind... including every Prophet.... from Moses (murder) to David (adultery).
- I would say that Islam tradition has misunderstood this, and created a "Sinless Muhammad / Sinless Messenger" doctrine, which is not correct.

- The other thing to remember in this passage is that it is pre-Law / Pre-Torah. The culture and what was permitted by God in the early chapters of Chapters may have been quite different than later. I am not saying this action was allowable, however there is a whole different framework that we are dealing with.

- A final thing.....it is good to begin with a starting point with a) The Function of the Bible and the Qur'an are different (which means there is a different angle on events) b) The type of literature is different (The Qur'an being rhythmical for memorizing) c) The essence of the Holy Books is unified.

As mentioned previously, this commentary might help.. http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/

Wasalam

Zack


Offline Student

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Re: Genesis 19:30-38
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2016, 06:27:25 PM »
Hello Zack,

Thanks for helping me out every time I've difficulties related to previous scriptures :D However, with respect I do not agree with your stated sentiments/understanding:

Quote
The Books of the Bible present a more chronological narrative.... presenting "the good, the bad, and the ugly" of all of mankind... including every Prophet.... from Moses (murder) to David (adultery).

I'm just into half of Genesis still, yet coming as a Muslim and believer in the Quran I do not place ordinary mankind and messengers in the same scale. Musa's AS incidence is a not a good example and certainly doesn't fall in the "bad or ugly" category according to the Quranic narrative of the incidence. I refuse and reject Lut's AS incest story especially when Quran categorically stated that the previous scriptures are partially corrupted and that Quran is a Guardian over them - what other corruption is bigger and worst than character assassination of one of the great Prophet? For me it's no brainer. FYI the traditional Islam are not unanimous in Muhammad AS or all Prophets being Masoom (infallible) - there's a debate and difference of opinion on the subject but no parties ever associate any Prophet with most heinous crimes such as rape, incest, murder, adultery, shirk intentionally or otherwise. If anything Quran stands witness to it.

I also strongly yet respectfully disagree with you on your oft-repeated understanding:

Quote
The Function of the Bible and the Qur'an are different

Both are for, and have the same and common primary function, Guidance

(please see 28:49)

This is why I dearly miss Sir Joseph's comments and clarifications on such extremely hard to swallow pills.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline wanderer

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Re: Genesis 19:30-38
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2016, 01:12:37 AM »
Well said Student!!!
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)